Elkhart Conn bass trombone saved

[bloke]

I find that (though I did a pretty darn good job of repairing this instrument's F-slide's mangled slide bow) that bow is thin (filing/sanding/buffing, during ancient refinishing process...??), and I also see that the Wisconsin jobber has this bow in stock (old-old-old new stock), so I'm going to get one for this instrument.

Also, I was thinking of replacing the F tuning slide tubes, but - even though these originals were not in the best shape - I'm thinking that

- as I did a darn good job of repairing them, and
- If I built a contraption semi-similar to the one in the previously-posted youtube video, I'll be dressing them down (for fast action) anyway - which should eliminate any remaining surface imperfections

I'll probably just keep the original F tuning slide tubes in place, and work with those.

(Miraphone has some nickel-outside/brass-inside tubing that's close, but the Miraphone bore size is 15mm and the original bore is only seems to be 14.85mm.
This isn't much of a difference, but it's a difference. If I just can't get these original/repaired tubes to slip freely/quickly without glitches, I'll go ahead and get the Miraphone stuff.)

[Finetales]

It seems to me that – again – an orchestral player can get by pretty darn well with a 72H - or something like that - with a contraption as seen in the video shown in a previous post in this thread…the bonus being that a 72H sounds so damn good, as long as the player doesn’t get carried away with mouthpiece size and muffle the instrument’s beautiful natural resonance tendencies.
I don’t play bass trombone worth a crap, but I know enough to know that two valves are needed for big band stuff and trombone choir stuff… but I don’t see that either of those pursuits pay any real money anywhere.

Oh yes, a stock 72H is more than enough for ~90% of that could ever come across your stand as a bass trombonist. With effort and excellent outer position slide technique, that number is more like 98%. I played a stock 72H as my only bass trombone for over a year. Mahler symphonies, Mozart Requiems, agile modern big band parts, swing era 4th trombone parts, classic George Roberts ballads. It did at all and sounded just right for all of it. My slide hand did get a big work out on that big band stuff (lots of agile licks below the staff with plenty of low Bs and Cs...I got VERY familiar with both flat-E tuning and low C/B false tones), but I played it all.

Except that undoing an E or bE pull takes a matter of a second or two, but undoing an Eb slide takes a bit longer.

Well of course, I just meant functionally. If you need to change the valve tuning in the middle of a tune, pulling/pushing is infinitely superior to swapping slides.

[bloke]

topic: bass trombone resonance characteristics:

primary differences: PLAYERS
make much more difference than with tubas: MOUTHPIECES

================================================

Those having been stated, some bass trombones (one example: vintage King "Duo Gravis") tend to naturally offer a tremendous amount of "teeth" in the sound.

Many of the newer (and typically "custom/boutique-y") bass trombone "cannons" (huge this/that/the-other) seem to sound somewhat "hollow" until they are REALLY pushed, and then (well...unless in a big band) way too loud for most everything...but some of their players tend to overplay them SO THAT they can achieve some amount of "teeth" in the sound.

Old Elkhart Conn's (whether the slightly-smaller throat yellow brass 7XH models or the slightly-larger throat red brass 6XH models) seem to offer the perfect balance in resonance (to my right ear, as it's often pretty close to several different fine players' bass trombone bells).

[matt g]

I always liked the King sound a bit more, but both are great. The Yamaha YBL-612 or whatever the duo-gravis + 62H 73H mashup is was a pretty decent imitation, although it suffered* from a dependent trigger stack.





*some people, including myself, didn’t care all that much, and thought the roller key setup was clever enough

[bloke]

The last bass that I personally owned – before I decided to quit trying to double on bass trombone – was one of those 612s. It was fine, but I’m not.

I really did a nice job of restoring it and re-lacquering it, and made the mistake of offering it on eBay with no reserve.

Of course, it didn’t have two in-line axial flow valves, and I had to surrender it for 400-and-something dollars.

[Finetales]

One of the reasons the Duo Gravis barks so much is because the valve tubing is .562, rather than oversized relative to the slide bore like pretty much every other bass out there. But it's also just a barky horn to begin with. I don't have a King bass trombone (I'm not a fan of dependent valves, and the 7B/8B independent models weren't as good), but I love my small King tenors (and flugabone!).

I also currently have an Olds S-24G in addition to my 72Hs...there's another lean bass trombone that can light it up. With that nickel slide, response is INSTANT.

[bone-a-phone]

One of the reasons the Duo Gravis barks so much is because the valve tubing is .562, rather than oversized relative to the slide bore like pretty much every other bass out there. But it's also just a barky horn to begin with. I don't have a King bass trombone (I'm not a fan of dependent valves, and the 7B/8B independent models weren't as good), but I love my small King tenors (and flugabone!).

I also currently have an Olds S-24G in addition to my 72Hs...there's another lean bass trombone that can light it up. With that nickel slide, response is INSTANT.

I had a P24g that I really liked and shouldn't have sold. My bandmates much preferred the sound of my Kanstul 1662i. Also had an Olds S20 with swapped out Duo Gravis valves that barked like satan himself. Another horn I shouldn't have sold.

Of course, it didn’t have two in-line axial flow valves, and I had to surrender it for 400-and-something dollars.

Next time you want to sell a trombone, please warn me first. Geez. I'm not a yammie fan, but I'd do a 612 for $400. Hell, I'd give you $500.

...
Many of the newer (and typically "custom/boutique-y") bass trombone "cannons" (huge this/that/the-other) seem to sound somewhat "hollow" until they are REALLY pushed, and then (well...unless in a big band) way too loud for most everything...but some of their players tend to overplay them SO THAT they can achieve some amount of "teeth" in the sound.

Old Elkhart Conn's (whether the slightly-smaller throat yellow brass 7XH models or the slightly-larger throat red brass 6XH models) seem to offer the perfect balance in resonance (to my right ear, as it's often pretty close to several different fine players' bass trombone bells).

Yeah, this grates me. I keep doing what I can to piece together smaller bass trombones. I have a Holton tr159 with a plugin valve, and it serves just fine. Plays like a trombone. But everyone wants to hear this euphonium-ish velvet that comes out of my Kanstul, plays like a bull moose.

People keep showing up to big bands with large bore horns. Even on tenor parts. They just don't cut. You have to play SO loud to get any edge on them. I had a two-valve tenor at one point, and that did big band bass well enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Bit I think I'm next in line for a nice old 62h or even a newer one. I need to stop hating bass trombone so much and get something I don't have to fight so much.

[bloke]

The more I think about the F attachment slide trigger, the more I think that - were I a tenor trombone player - I would want one of those on my F attachment, and not just on a bass trombone.

[Finetales]

It would certainly be useful for tenor solo rep with low Cs, pit books, or any orchestral part that throws Cs and Bs in willy-nilly. (Lots of contemporary stuff of course, but also quite a bit from older composers. The 4th tenor part in Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder comes to mind...chock full of low Bs.)

I plan on turning at least one of my tenors into a 2-valve tenor for exactly this sort of thing (especially pit books, as I actually get called to play those unlike Gurre-Lieder). The slide kicker is another good solution, as is the dependent ascending C valve.