Question to the long-time Wessex owners

[Snake Charmer]

For all of you playing any Wessex horn for a bit longer:
In 2015 I bought my Bb ophicleide in raw brass, in 2018 the french c tuba in silver plated. I played them both for a lot of hours and they saw some gigs before C...d. They had both minor tweaks which I could sort out myself in the first days, of the sort I didn't bother for this price.
Last December when preparing my Christmas french tuba quartet for the video I found the some notes a bit strange. On the recording day it felt so bad, especially the lower Dbs (on 46 and 56) that I rinsed the horn and found open soldering joints on the bow of valve 4 and 6 and a pinhole in bow 5.
For the recording duck tape was the rescue (meanwhile my repair guy did a good job!).
In January I looked at the ophicleide while the sun shone on her through the window... and saw the soldering of one of the big braces coming apart .
And some weeks ago I bought a 2015 Wessex Saxhorn (copy of the Courtois 366, they had it until 2016) from a former student. When I tried it it sounded like a leaky water key. When I cleaned an rinsed it some days later the complete leadpipe/tuning slide assembly fell of, all solderings had disintegrated .
Do you have some similar experiences or do I have some black magic in my studio? All other horns are OK, the longest owned is my Courtois trombone (for 39 years) without soldering problems.

[matt g]

Skill and ability of instrument manufacturing is vastly different when one is treated and paid like a craftsman and the other is treated like minimum wage labor.

I know that most of the importers set up people to do QA/QC on instruments as they come off the line, but issues like these are not immediately apparent nor diagnosable.

Being evenhanded, there are some periods of UMI production that the same thing can be said.

[Mary Ann]

What made me give up on my wessex tuba was the valves. They worked fine at first, but eventually would lock up, needing to be taken apart and cleaned.

The problem is the back bearing plates were so tight, they had to be hammered out with a steel hammer. Literally. I couldn't get the valves in or out without feeling like I was doing long term damage to the horn, and it wasn't sustainable.

I sold the tuba (practically gave it away at a huge loss) and bought the Packer of the same design. No problems in the 5 years I've owned it

[bort2.0]

Mark, hat's really unfortunate to hear. I guess that's kind of the way that things go for a lot of manufacturing, things start to wear out prematurely on some of the parts, whereas other parts are just fine.. like the bell of your tuba I'm sure has no issues or the bows, but none of that matters quite as much if the valves are having trouble.

Wasn't that sort of the thing with St Petersburg tubas like 25 years ago on the old German "Die Tuba" site? You could buy the tuba really cheap, or cheap + 20% (or something) to have the valves and linkages reworked and updated with German parts.

I'm not suggesting it, but could you replace the Wessex valves with German valves, and still come out on top compared to the cost of a new German tuba?

@Snake Charmer -- not sure much can be done about all those issues... Jeez...

Real question though... For what you paid, over the years you owned it... Would you say you got your money's worth? Like if a $3,000 horn lasts for 10 years, that's like a $10,000 horn lasting for 30 years. Can't really get something for nothing, just something for less with tradeoffs.

[dp]

am sympathetic, the last thing I would (publicly) say to anyone in this crowd is "I told you so"

[bloke]

…replace the valves with German valves, and still come out on top compared to the cost of a new German tuba?

I’ve received emails about this.
What most don’t notice (with the least expensive wholesale-cost Asian instruments) - in addition is the linkage and even more importantly – are the loose-fitting slide tubes, which allow slides to be able to be pulled and pushed with non-parallel and skew (non-coplanar) tubes.

If indeed someone deems the bell and bows to be satisfactory on some $700 (wholesale, including container load shipping and duty) five valve tuba, it’s not just the rotary valves that cry out for upgrades, it’s the entire valvesets and the mouthpipe tubes. Obviously - with many people, that stuff is good enough for them.

One admission that I consistently make - on this set of forums - is that I’m lazy. If I bought a bunch of new stuff that needed to be fixed, I would be buying myself a job, rather than constantly short-term investing in profitable merchandise. I have enough stuff to fix already. Further, I don’t like to receive complaints about stuff that I sell – whether they are gently worded in the forms of questions, or somewhat elevated in their rhetoric. I constantly complain to myself about myself, and really don’t have time to hear complaints about myself (or stuff that I sell) from others. I’m NOT referring to any importer/reseller in particular, though one was named in this thread. I’m referring to which factories and quality levels with which I would be willing to work with – whether or not I had to go through a reseller or bought direct. Though products are being slowly added, the company through which I purchase Asian-made instruments is just a bit UK slanted in its offerings, but – again – I don’t have to fix them before I sell them.

As far as International politics and purchases are concerned (as I see quite a few comments on this topic), I don’t consider any country in particular to be a “friend“ of the United States of America, and I’m pretty suspect about the United States of America’s ruling class being my friends, so there’s that.

[LeMark]

am sympathetic, the last thing I would (publicly) say to anyone in this crowd is "I told you so"

Pretty sure you condemned every instrument made in china. I can list several brands of tubas, euphoniums, trombones, and other instruments that are of high quality that are made there.

Personally I own 7 Packer instruments that I am very happy with, and a rath tenor that is made in the same factory.

[bort2.0]

I don't condemn them but people make their own choices. My choice is to never own a Chinese-made tuba. And yes, to avoid the poorly made tubas that weren't made in China, too.

[matt g]

@bort2.0, those old St. Petersburg tubas from either “die tuba” or Tuba Exchange from that period (1993 to 1998 or so) all had terrible valves. Yes, you could upgrade the linkages, springs, paddles, etc. to better stuff, but none of that fixed the problem of the rotors not being airtight.

QA/QC is expensive. JP and Eastman are likely spending the most amount of money there (based on real acquisition costs). They also order stuff in pretty large batches.

Wessex was gracious in offering a lot of odds and ends, like an ophicleide, French C tuba, over-the-shoulder, and whatever else. However, demand for a lot of that stuff is minuscule (I’m guessing maybe handfuls or dozens was the real demand signal), so each instrument is basically a prototype (a kind word in the manufacturing realm that really means practice) and will suffer from additional problems that usually get worked out over time.

Most of those Miraclones seem to be okay at this point and a solid choice for most people wanting to learn how to play tuba in C. That’s evidence that, after a while, consistency of quality will emerge with enough practice, like playing a waltz in E with some fun licks without making it sound silly.

[bloke]

My choice is to never own a Chinese-made tuba. And yes, to avoid the poorly made tubas that weren't made in China, too.

I neither condemn nor defend this preference.
EVEN THOUGH such cars are put together as well as the others, I choose to not purchase bright-colored cars (for the same reason that I do not apply any sorts of stickers to car bumpers nor car windows).

I couldn't possibly care less where a piece of equipment is made that I own. Again, (politically) no government/ruler/whatever has ever not eventually become epically/completely corrupt so (again)...shoulder-shrugs to all that nationalism mess.

*I look for instruments that: [1] make me sound better than I am, [2] I do not have to fight them in order to play them, and [3] are stupid-easy to play (again: I AM LAZY !!!). I seek out the extremes/best of these, so that I - pretty much - forget that the instrument is there. I've not found anything (yet) made in China/India/Czech Republic/Brazil/Holland/Italy/Malaysia/France that fit the bill, but (again - IF I do not have to "fix" them prior to selling them new...and if others like them) I'll sell 'em.

Politics-wise, I suspect that almost no one - working in any musical instrument factory in any geo-political country/state/etc. - hates my guts, despises me, nor wishes me dead.
_____________________________
* "sturdy/reliable"...sure...OK...but anyone who has wasted enough of their lives reading most of my $h!t will remember that I have made this analogy quite a few times:

Come on and meet my spouse's friend on this blind double-date, because that person is sturdy and reliable.

[dp]

Subject: Question to the long-time Wessex owners

am sympathetic, the last thing I would (publicly) say to anyone in this crowd is "I told you so"

Pretty sure you condemned every instrument made in china. I can list several brands of tubas, euphoniums, trombones, and other instruments that are of high quality that are made there.
Personally I own 7 Packer instruments that I am very happy with, and a rath tenor that is made in the same factory.

No, I did not, Mark, and the high quality you mention did not exist there a decade or more ago. Ten years ago there was no packer. All the problems the OP listed would be common to use of poor materials during assembly regardless of who made them or where they were made or when. That's a completely different issue from "basic workmanship" like valve casing alignment and fit. If the current distributor of "Packer" specifies appropriate solder and flux to use, and the proper material to use for soldered joints (ferrules, brace reinforcements) and fairly standard material for mouthpipes and tubes etc, and all those proper materials are actually used by the manufacturer, and the way they solder and assemble is reasonably-skilled, you will likely not have the problems the OP was talking about. But regardless of any superior visual fit and finish of the other manufacturers, if substandard or wrong materials are used the problems the OP described about their horns falling apart will recur.
(buyer beware=I told you so after the fact)
The truth is very few if any people here would be able to identify these solder/rot/materials issues by sight on a brand new horn (like during "QA") but every single mechanical reason leading to your horns valve problems was being reported on brand new horns almost since day 1 of the advent of "the bubbie" or travel tuba or whatever it was. And yet over the years while that supplier accumulated a decade-long record of problems, folks still bought their wares, folks like the OP, which is why I said I "am sympathetic." And I am sympathetic to you too. I am also pretty sure that in every case still recorded on chisham's site or facebook or even here that every one of those problems was met with "we are doing better now" excuses, whining or third-party defense of that distributor. This morning, I was hoping to sit back, eat some popcorn, and read something like a repair statement promised by that supplier, or their stateside distribution center. That maker's reputation, which a lot of people financed...that ten year display of that business model, followed with with their bumping prices as traditional suppliers dramatically-raised theirs because they "couldn't compete", eventually led to other distributors working harder to get better wares manufactured. That's how "the market" can work. Its just too damn bad that centuries-old manufacturing tradition in other parts of the world got hammered(poo poo that if we will) and it is also too bad it took a LOT of good people's money, yourself included, to be scammed before these other suppliers upped the game.

[bone-a-phone]

I had an issue I detailed on the Werden site. Festivo had a leak in a hard to reach compensating system tube. It got fixed, but I had to chase it down.

I've bought 4 new Wessex and 2 used. Mostly trombones, 2 euphs and a tuba, and the Festivo was the only real problem. The finish is the biggest problem. The tight valves are another issue for me. The quality is good for the price, but the price keeps going up. Used pro horns are still a better option. Wessex does make some oddities and historical instruments you can't find other places.

[LargeTuba]

Eastman tubas are great, ZO tubas seem to work. It seems to be that jinbao is the problem.

[bloke]

As I have stated before about JP instruments,

The quality of the piston valve blocks, the quality of the rotary valves, the fit between inside and outside slide tubes, and so on is all good from that factory…
… but if I buy straight from the factory (unbranded, and not to JP’s quality specs) to avoid JP’s markup, I don’t get the quality of assembly of those quality parts. Thus: I have to fix stuff. Again, I am lazy. I don’t like fixing new stuff - particularly since it’s quite a challenge to keep new stuff looking new after it has been fixed.
Dan Schultz enjoys showing that - sometimes - the stop arms on the rotors on JP tuba-sized instruments don’t fit tight against the valve stems, but – then again - neither do some of the German-made stop arms, and pressing down some of the German stop arms onto their stems still results in a noise, until the center screw is tightened down.

Were I building some typical three-quarter inch bore piston C tuba with a fifth rotor, I would be extremely happy slapping a JP C valve set on it, as long as the bugle that I chose didn’t suck…
… and the same goes for JP’s 19.5mm and 20mm rotary valvesets - as well as their linkage.

Were I in love with a PT-15 version of a B&S F tuba, I would play JP’s… there just isn’t any difference in build quality. … but I personally prefer the old handmade sheet metal version of a PT-9 with five bore sizes, six rotors, and a smaller bell throat, so…

I’ve also not played a better 19 inch bell compensating E-flat…but I already have one that features a goofy detachable recording bell - which is perfect for early jazz…and I’m not going to be owning two compensating E-flat tubas, so…

Finally, I sort of wish I spent more time playing the JP copy of the Czech-made Arion compact model B-flat. it’s better than the original, and - even though the Holton B-flat that I built for myself features a different bell diameter and a different bore size – the two instruments play very similarly, and don’t sound that much different. Further, the JP instrument discussed in this paragraph offers really great intonation. I might add a fifth rotor to it to make it chromatic, but it would’ve been a lot easier to buy one of these for myself than to have built the Holton.

… and I’ve only mentioned the three tubas that could’ve possibly been of interest to me for personal ownership, and none of the rest of them that they make.

People are going nuts for their euphonium‘s… For me personally, they’re not what I need but who the hell am I ? (nothing more than a doubler)

I just don’t go for toys like 18th century style pre-tuba instruments, obsolete-style tubas, tubas that are sort of interesting and fun to play for a few minutes - but not usable (due to intonation), miniaturized instruments, I’ve gotten over the helicon thing, and so on, and/but I am waiting for JP to expand their line more towards American tastes – as I expressed in an earlier post in this thread.

OK… Commercial over.
Back to non-commercial (but just as biased) discussion.

[Finetales]

The quality is good for the price, but the price keeps going up.

This is the biggest issue with Wessex for me. A few years ago Wessex instruments were amazing deals, and you could live with some minor quality issues for the price you paid (especially for the oddball horns that had no other affordable option, even used). Now, they may be cheaper than a new Yamaha, but they ain't cheap. The 6/4 Tubby Eb is $7,400...intriguing instrument, but that's a hard pass from me.

I understand inflation (even the barest-of-the-bones Mack Brass has been hit, with the euphonium now clocking in at $1,349), but Wessex's steady price increases are on another level.

(The second biggest issue I have with Wessex is they discontinued all the models I wanted to buy before I had a chance to buy them.)

[bloke]

The second biggest issue I have with Wessex is they discontinued all the models I wanted to buy before I had a chance to buy them.

You might be able to find some of the things (that they no longer order from Jinbao) sold by Laabs. (??) I’m pretty sure that – in order for a model to remain proprietary – a certain quantity have to be ordered and bought per year.

[iattp]

The quality is good for the price, but the price keeps going up.

So, what horns did you want to buy?

BTW: Kinda a big fan of your work! I geek out on your youtube videos. Hella good!!!!!

[Finetales]

So, what horns did you want to buy?

The two big ones were the PE523 large bore alto trombone and the large bore soprano trombone with F attachment.

The alto was awesome. I tried one at a convention once and it was 90% as good as the amazing boutique altos, for a tiny fraction of the cost. They discontinued it right as I was about to buy one! I E-mailed them about it, and they said they were developing a replacement model with a valve. That never happened.

The soprano was announced and then put up on their website only briefly before it was removed. I E-mailed them about it, and they said it was due to quality issues, and that it would be back once that was sorted. Like with the alto trombone, that never happened.

BTW: Kinda a big fan of your work! I geek out on your youtube videos. Hella good!!!!!

Thanks!! Glad you enjoy them.

[2nd tenor]

For all of you playing any Wessex horn for a bit longer:
In 2015 I bought my Bb ophicleide in raw brass, in 2018 the french c tuba in silver plated. I played them both for a lot of hours and they saw some gigs before C...d. They had both minor tweaks which I could sort out myself in the first days, of the sort I didn't bother for this price.
Last December when preparing my Christmas french tuba quartet for the video I found the some notes a bit strange. On the recording day it felt so bad, especially the lower Dbs (on 46 and 56) that I rinsed the horn and found open soldering joints on the bow of valve 4 and 6 and a pinhole in bow 5.
For the recording duck tape was the rescue (meanwhile my repair guy did a good job!).
In January I looked at the ophicleide while the sun shone on her through the window... and saw the soldering of one of the big braces coming apart .
And some weeks ago I bought a 2015 Wessex Saxhorn (copy of the Courtois 366, they had it until 2016) from a former student. When I tried it it sounded like a leaky water key. When I cleaned an rinsed it some days later the complete leadpipe/tuning slide assembly fell of, all solderings had disintegrated .
Do you have some similar experiences or do I have some black magic in my studio? All other horns are OK, the longest owned is my Courtois trombone (for 39 years) without soldering problems.

We see some Wessex Tubas here in the UK and I know two people who have them. Minor faults are not unknown but the (those) instruments are basically sound copies of those made by well known western manufacturers - to my ears they’re fine for the price, they can sound and play well in the right hands, but I’m not sure that I’d want one. The company’s owner is hot on QA and eventually got his instruments made by a dedicated team at his chosen factory - that’s indicative of the direction of travel and also that there were significant issues to (try to) manage.

[peterbas]

.