Miraphone F tuba update

[bloke]

eh?

[Casca Grossa]

Arrogance, mouthpiece-dropping, or steamroller…I hope no one changes the design of my F tuba.

I heard some of the Chinese clones are incorporating a precise mouthpiece dropping device into their assembly process.

[bloke]

Arrogance, mouthpiece-dropping, or steamroller…I hope no one changes the design of my F tuba.

I heard some of the Chinese clones are incorporating a precise mouthpiece dropping device into their assembly process.

Supposedly, it’s the next best thing to “hand hammered”. I hear that the best instruments are made in areas of the factories that are kept at 70° and those instruments are actually hammered on by humans.

[arpthark]

I have an old Couesnon that is hand-(and floor-)hammered. The bell also features artisanal sonic folds and two "tone holes" for maximum projection.

$10,000, no low balls, I know what I got.

[bloke]

I have an old Couesnon that is hand-(and floor-)hammered. The bell also features artisanal sonic folds and two "tone holes" for maximum projection.

$10,000, no low balls, I know what I got.

hmm...I wonder if one of the Asian factories would like to make a replica of this French tuba...(??)

[jtm]

...
Candid question: does C in the staff exhibit the tendency of other 181s (even though this tuba isn't quite a 181) to creep upwards of 35c sharp?

Were the old 181s worse about this than 180s? Is having the same bore through the valves as a 186 or 188 part of the problem? Does a certain type of mouthpiece (small throat?) help?

[arpthark]

...
Candid question: does C in the staff exhibit the tendency of other 181s (even though this tuba isn't quite a 181) to creep upwards of 35c sharp?

Were the old 181s worse about this than 180s? Is having the same bore through the valves as a 186 or 188 part of the problem? Does a certain type of mouthpiece (small throat?) help?

I haven't played a 180 myself. @the elephant, any input?

I'm really not sure why that C is so sharp. The bore could have something to do with it, but I think it's just an inherent bugle flaw -- the same reason so many German style C tubas have a high 3rd partial G, maybe. Naturally in the overtone series, a "pure" fifth is a couple cents sharper than an equal tempered fifth, but not nearly by that much. Miraphone has defacto addressed this by releasing new F tubas that don't have this issue.

My classmate in college had a 181 that I put extensive time on. We also had one available as a practice F tuba in the tuba studio if I am remembering correctly.

That C had to be played fourth valve, no way to do it otherwise. He got along with it just fine, and it had six valves too, so lots of fingering options. But, not what I would personally elect to play.

[the elephant]

On my old 180, the open series was dead in tune but the low Db, C, and B were nearly unusable, even by many who are very adept at coping with the social and air distortions needed to make those stink-pot notes work well. I more or less fixed that, but never got to follow up on my work to see if I could dial it in better. I sold it, so unless I buy it back it stays as it is. The last owner wanted me to pay more than double what I got for it, with no further improvements, and in lousy condition. Nope. Sorry.

The issues with the scale of that tuba were mostly in the 23 overtone series, which was "interesting"…

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I realize this makes no sense, but I have played Miraphone/Mirafone F tubas that had a screaming sharp middle C, and once the lead pipe was removed/'floating' from the bell, the C was 95% improved....
Mark

[cjk]

The original "B&S Copy" 181 did not have the sky high C in the staff. Or at least the one I had did not.

[jtm]

... Does a certain type of mouthpiece (small throat?) help?

So far, with this particular tuba, I'm having pretty good luck with a C4 (TU23). The C is quite sharp and helped by an alternate fingering, but the Bb below it is not too bad, and everything else is manageable with this mouthpiece. Low F and E are a touch flat, but lippable. The C4 does a little better (for me) than one labeled simply "Helleberg", but that's not too bad. A C3 (TU21) seems similar to the C4; not sure which I prefer at this point.

A Rose Orchestra (TU25) is horrible! (for me, on this tuba) The C is sharper, the low F is flatter, the whole upper range is flatter, and things are just generally more messed up.

A 5G large shank trombone mouthpiece (which doesn't really fit, of course) makes everything a little sharper, but the mid C lines up much better. Maybe I should be looking for something with a throat less than 7.5 mm, like a C7 (TU11).

Blokepiece Solo?

[jtm]

So, after some time with the instrument, and trying different mouthpieces (from my very small collection), my notable intonation issues seem to have shrunk to these:

• C in the staff is really sharp. It can be lipped low enough, but that feels more like playing a serpent than a tuba. Playing it on 4th valve seems pretty solid, though.

• B is almost as sharp as C. It’s also sharp with 2-4, of course, but a little better. Since 5th valve is slightly longer than 4th, 2-5 is pretty good.

• Bb tends pretty sharp on 1, but 1-5 is okay.

• the third partial sharpness is almost gone by A, but playing A on 3 sometimes seems better anyway.

• low F and E are flat with some mouthpieces, but my most recent swap seems to have fixed these notes. Or maybe I’ve just learned to play everything else flat to compensate. Anyway, it’s good today.

And that’s about it. F near the top of the staff can be a little sharp, but it’s easy enough to steer. The octave above that is all pretty nice with normal fingerings (1-2 for A seems normal, right?). The octave below the low F is decent, too. Low Bb is good with 1-5, and very low G is very solid with 2-4-5.

Since this is my first F tuba, I was pretty freaked out by the sharp C and notes just below. Those seem like important notes that you’d expect to be great on most any tuba, right? But having worked out better fingerings, and played enough to get used to them, I think I’ll be able to do some nice playing.

Should I consider this an intonation win for an older German rotary F tuba?

[arpthark]

Should I consider this an intonation win for an older German rotary F tuba?

A win for an old 181-ish Miraphone, for sure. The sky-high third partial is pretty much the only major quirk in my recollection, and as you've negotiated that with alternate fingerings sounds like you'll (continue to) have a great time.

My other old German F tuba experience lies with a Meinl-Weston 46 (1960s-1970s) and a B&S pre-PT10 (marked only "Perantucci Model," made in GDR, swappable leadpipes, circa 1980s). Both great tubas.

Both of those exhibited pretty normal intonation quirks in that the fifth partial favored fingerings from the lower octave (G, Ab, A at the top of the staff lying a bit better as 4, 23 and 12).

I seem to recall the third partial on the MW requiring a bit of lipping down, too, as it tended sharp, but not as sharp as the 181s I've played.

Intonation became more difficult in the low range of the MW46 as well but the sixth valve alleviated that and provided a lot of alternates.

How's the low range intonation on the Miraphone? I guess with the weird fifth valve setup you have some different options.

[cjk]

...

Should I consider this an intonation win for an older German rotary F tuba?

Not a win, but common (sadly).

[jtm]

How's the low range intonation on the Miraphone? I guess with the weird fifth valve setup you have some different options.

Low range intonation is okay. All the pitches below D are pretty steerable. Not as many options as if there were normal (short) 5th and 6th valves, but good enough for me, for now. The 5th valve setup is about as much flat as a normal 5th valve’s flat whole step, so 1-5 is a good Bb and 2-4-5 is a good G. As Mary Ann suggested on another thread, playing low C on a little more tubing than 4th valve can make it more stable. Sometimes. I’m still getting used to it, I guess.

Why is it that it was normal for F tubas to be such a mess when they’re surrounded by Bb tubas, C tubas, and euphoniums that have well behaved harmonic series?

[cjk]

...
Why is it that it was normal for F tubas to be such a mess when they’re surrounded by Bb tubas, C tubas, and euphoniums that have well behaved harmonic series?

There's a reason B&S has been making pretty much the same F tuba for 60+ (or more?) years now and they're seen all over the place. It's still THE F tuba to copy by those who copy instruments.

Plenty of C tubas are a mess.

[bloke]

...
Why is it that it was normal for F tubas to be such a mess when they’re surrounded by Bb tubas, C tubas, and euphoniums that have well behaved harmonic series?

There's a reason B&S has been making pretty much the same F tuba for 60+ (or more?) years now and they're seen all over the place. It's still THE F tuba to copy by those who copy instruments.

Plenty of C tubas are a mess.

… and just like 1970s and later Selmer Paris saxophones and copies of Selmer Paris saxophones that are larger than 1950s/1960s Selmer Paris saxophones, larger B&S F tubas and copies (mouthpipes, valveset bores, bell throats) that are larger are not as good as the originals made in the 1970s and early 1980s.

This is also true with many other types of instruments… There always is some sort of negative trade-off.
———-
C tubas that are cut-down versions of B-flat tubas tend to be messes - with some rare exceptions (often, exceptions within models themselves).
Asymmetrical large upper bows obviously aren’t particularly helpful.

[jtm]

Plenty of C tubas are a mess.

C tubas that are cut-down versions of B-flat tubas tend to be messes - with some rare exceptions (often, exceptions within models themselves).
Asymmetrical large upper bows obviously aren’t particularly helpful.

I'm spoiled by some good Bb and C tubas, I guess.

Anyway, I took this F to brass band tonight, and my reading is still slow, but the tuba did really well. Played in tune, with a sound that fit well with the group (sat next to a Firebird). Seems like a tuba that will be good to learn on for a while.

Thanks @bort2.0 for finding this odd instrument and agreeing to ship it to Texas.

[bort2.0]

No problem John, and thanks for giving this tuba the time and attention that I obviously never did. It's nice to hear the ups and downs of learning a new horn, and I hope your patience will be rewarded. It sounds like it already has had some nice benefits.

It's not a small tuba, and it has a pretty good bore for an F tuba, too. That was one of the most attractive things to me about it. I'd still have it today if not for needing the $ for other things in life. (The 5/4 Rudy, too.)

Do you think you'll ever do any tuba surgery to the 5th valve to make it a more normal configuration?

Someday, indulge us (okay, indulge ME) with a photo of your 188 with the F tuba....?

[jtm]

Do you think you'll ever do any tuba surgery to the 5th valve to make it a more normal configuration?

Someday, indulge us (okay, indulge ME) with a photo of your 188 with the F tuba....?

Here's the 188 with the unusual and un-serialed Miraphone F. I should have worked for better lighting.



The 188 is really compact.

I'm not likely to change the 5th valve. I don't personally care if this particular tuba is collectible, but it seems odd enough that I shouldn't alter it, in case I want to sell it to somebody who does care. Besides, I don't have any other tuba with a normal long whole step fifth valve, so it's not like I'll get confused.