angry

[bloke]

I said a whole bunch about these, and then deleted everything I said.

I get paid to fix this stuff that (would have resulted in EXPULSION when I was in a low-income public school - even had I done this to the old hopelessly-worn-out 3-valve King) "students" destroy, but - OTOH - I have to PAY for (local taxes) all of the OTHER school equipment that is ALSO destroyed just as horribly.

...so go ahead and mock the old man for yet another "back in my day" post, but - well... - I don't care for "your day"; no...not at all.

Dear "educators"...PLEASE stop buying this absolutely-the-most-expensive-available stuff. Your school systems' buyers are completely ignorant, powerless, and don't know any better - other than to rubber stamp your purchase requests.

https://www.wwbw.com/Yamaha-YBB-641-Pro ... 61362.wwbw

My guess is that ONE "student" - in two minutes - trashed BOTH of these...

[York-aholic]

Check it out Dude, these things bounce!

P.S. Yes, I agree with you, both on the way kids (hate to say it but plenty of adults too) treat 'their' stuff and the world in general, as well as the futility of band directors buying quality "stuff" with our tax money for kids that treat it like the above YamaBows...

[Three Valves]

The village is doing a bang-up job!

[sweaty]

Retired band director here. That is so awful. I never had that from a student. The band director really needs to show that to the administrators and student's parents. It is an indicator of big problems.

[iiipopes]

I feel your pain. Seriously. I was lucky. I grew up in a school system that had a music program with a stellar reputation, including trophies from just about every competition entered and "I" ratings at state contest for over thirty years in a row. The school district was able to enforce the parents paying for repairs that were not "normal wear and tear," or "unforseen accidents" (yes, I tripped and fell marching with my souzy a couple of times) and was able to afford the time to teach the players of school instruments proper care and maintenance.

Fast forward. I have similar incidents here where I work with clients, and even opposing parties and counsel. When something comes back like this, I have the luxury to take the attitude of job security, more billable hours, and continue on. I understand not everybody is in this situation, and it can be a royal pita otherwise, because some cases are flat fees, no matter how many times it needs to be redone, or contingent fees that are set no matter how much time is logged.

bloke, hang in there!

[bloke]

This is NOT a "repair/look-what-I-can-do" thread...

...but Mrs. bloke and I skipped the last half of the first Rockford episode, worked through the first part of the second one (GET-TV) and now are back inside. (I tried to get out to the shop all day, but I had had to deal with bidness texts
/ emails / messages / paperwork / one of you need an old euphonium mouthpiece receiver / etc... )
We roughed these out, and I'll finish them up in the morning and then take a look at all the other crap they did to these two $11,000 don't-play-as-well-as-$1700-Jinbao-model-200 tubas.

I'm taking a semi-shower, and will now lay down, watch both Hogan's Heroes episodes (on METV) and - probably nod off to sleep.

bloke "I REALLY wish that Perry Mason was on BEFORE Carol Burnett, rather than after...and - (still angry) - thinking about ALL of the DIVERSE types of "most-expensive"/"fesshunul" equipment that teenagers-no-more-civilized-than-two-year-olds tear up at my expense...and - now that my wise rulers have brought about 'fundamental change' in that everything suddenly costs twice as much - did I charge twice as much as I did pre-2021 to repair these...?? why yes...Yes, I did. "

https://www.walmart.com/browse/food/egg ... 07_1001469

[bloke]

Weird off-topic update, followed up by a topical update:

The bottom bows are nice and smooth, as I found time to finish them last night before Hogan’s Heroes came on.

I was working on other dents throughout these instruments today - wearing only a T-shirt out in the shop… ideal temperatures just ahead of a cold front.

I came in the house, and my left forearm had swollen red patches on it on the shapes of short lines – perhaps about a half inch wide and two or three inches long.

Obviously, I’m allergic to something. I washed my arm off and hit it with cortizone… It’s fine.
I’m going back out there wearing a sweatshirt, after I finish this coffee.
(whatev’… ??)

on topic:
The band director at the high school was visiting one of his feeder middle schools and saw the condition of these. He took them away from the school and is sending a couple of E. 3/4 three-valve tubas over there in place of them.
I’m glad to hear that he reacted as I would, he is proactive, was concerned, and did something.

[Three Valves]

"My insurance went up 25%+ yet I have had no claims"

"And?"

Repeat.

[bloke]

"My insurance went up 25%+ yet I have had no claims"

"And?"

Repeat.

Yeah that BS happened to me two or three years ago.
Basically, “We are RFing you, because we can.”
(Not many ins. companies insure log houses… which is stupid, because log house walls don’t consist of endless 3 1/2 inch thick by 14 inch wide chimneys - ie. stud construction, as does conventional construction. Therefore, it’s much more difficult to burn a log house down, just as it’s much more difficult to blow a log house down.)

As was seen in off-topic, I stained the house myself this time (everything is too damned expensive, now) - along with the help of my son. He’s always making a big point of stating how big and tough (big ) he is…but I’m the one that rigged the 25 foot ladder so that I could stain up at the 33 foot top of the house.

[iiipopes]

"My insurance went up 25%+ yet I have had no claims"

"And?"

Repeat.

Yeah that BS happened to me two or three years ago.
Basically, “We are RFing you, because we can.”
(Not many ins. companies insure log houses… which is stupid, because log house walls don’t consist of endless 3 1/2 inch thick by 14 inch wide chimneys - ie. stud construction, as does conventional construction. Therefore, it’s much more difficult to burn a log house down, just as it’s much more difficult to blow a log house down.)

As was seen in off-topic, I stained the house myself this time (everything is too damned expensive, now) - along with the help of my son. He’s always making a big point of stating how big and tough (big ) he is…but I’m the one that rigged the 25 foot ladder so that I could stain up at the 33 foot top of the house.

In my prior life, I helped my ex and her family repaint her grandparent's house as needed over the years. I was usually the first one there at the crack of dawn either on a tall ladder or on top of the carport with a shorter ladder getting up to the top of the eaves and soffits scraping so it would be ready for other ex-inlaws to prime and paint. I commend your fortitude to get it done.

[2nd tenor]

The band director at the high school was visiting one of his feeder middle schools and saw the condition of these. He took them away from the school and is sending a couple of E. 3/4 three-valve tubas over there in place of them.
I’m glad to hear that he reacted as I would, he is proactive, was concerned, and did something.

I do wonder about the mentality of some music teachers. Surely it must be obvious that those Yamaha BBb’s are big and heavy and really beyond the strength and dexterity of the average junior to move around? It ain’t rocket science. Give the youngsters moderately sized three valve Eb’s and they’ll be able to cover most things with them - what music doesn’t suit needs altering to suit - and dropping them will be less likely. Might be an idea to put some matting under the Tuba stands too. I rather think that if the Band Director had to pay for the repairs out of his (or her) salary then he (or she) would be looking much harder to understand how this stuff happens and then ensuring that it doesn’t.

[sweaty]

2nd tenor,

Small kids are able to handle these tubas and still be careful. Adequate size tubas are necessary to balance the band. Making band directors financially liable for every dysfunctional kid is not a good incentive to go into this field.

[sweaty]

I agree that these particular tubas are mediocre and way overpriced. Band directors tend to select Yamaha for everything knowing they won't select a bad horn. There are so many thousands of details necessary for this job, one just can't know everything.

[arpthark]

moderately sized three valve Eb’s

You may know this (but sometimes we find out things that we don't know because of gaps in our experience in this-that-or-the-other), but I know you are UK-based so I wanted to chime in that virtually no public schools in the USA use E-flat tubas. Maybe 60-70 years ago, but not anymore. Younger kids tend to start on 3/4 BBb tubas... or whatever the program has available. (I myself learned tuba in 6th grade [age 11] on a Yamaha YBB-201. I had to sit on text books or on my own crossed leg to reach the lead pipe.)

Apologies if you were aware, but I am always interested in differences between the US and the UK's band traditions.

[Three Valves]

This certainly didn’t happen to Sousas in Wenger chairs.

[bloke]

tinyurl.com/yjnv53pt

Every school band should solely consist of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184743201585

[windshieldbug]

tinyurl.com/yjnv53pt

Every school band should solely consist of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184743201585

Every band needs more biguls!

[2nd tenor]

moderately sized three valve Eb’s

You may know this (but sometimes we find out things that we don't know because of gaps in our experience in this-that-or-the-other), but I know you are UK-based so I wanted to chime in that virtually no public schools in the USA use E-flat tubas. Maybe 60-70 years ago, but not anymore. Younger kids tend to start on 3/4 BBb tubas... or whatever the program has available. (I myself learned tuba in 6th grade [age 11] on a Yamaha YBB-201. I had to sit on text books or on my own crossed leg to reach the lead pipe.)

Apologies if you were aware, but I am always interested in differences between the US and the UK's band traditions.

It’s always good to learn stuff and I thank you for your constructive response.

At one time Eb’s we’re in common use in the USA and then they became displaced by BBb’s (ref: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=63544 ). At one time three valve instruments were common and then four and more valves became essential, a case of chasing bigger and/or more is better which to my experience is mostly a marketing lie.

Some children, like you aged 11, will manage a YBB-201 but if you have to sit on books to reach the lead pipe then such instruments are clearly too big. It’s a case of an accident waiting to happen and the Band Director buying the wrong instruments: change would happen if financial penalty lay with the adult making the problem. Educators decide what size instruments are played, what brand and price point instruments are used, how instruments are stored, which student plays which instrument, how students are directed in their use and how children are held accountable for their actions.

The Brass Band that I play in does have a Training Band and in that there’s a youngster on Bass, it’s a small Eb Bass and a supporting adult plays a full sized BBb - but roughly a decade back, as an adult learner, he started on a half size instrument. We start children on Cornets and don’t move them onto bigger instruments until they are big enough to manage them, and we also have a history of using what are now considered half size Tubas. We do not load the dice against children by giving them instruments that are essentially to big for them.

Are smaller Basses any good? I can assure you that smaller Basses (like my Besson Regent Eb) are great players and in reasonable hands more than sufficient to provide the Bass voice for a music group. Sometimes less is more, but that message is not well received by marketing men - to them customers are prey, they want to sell what they have and ideally the dearest variant of what they have too.

[Breavdah]

Some schools need to treat the tubas as convenience stores operate in the ghetto: everything behind bars and Lexan, operated by some rotary mechanism with absolute minimum openings. Build 2 tubas into the back right corner, they can play standing behind the tympani.

[DonO.]

This has gotten off topic of course, the way many discussions here do…but some thoughts anyway of mine on various directions we have gone:

As to the damage, yes, back in my youthful days I dropped a contra-style Meinl Weston convertible and the bell crumpled. Yes indeed my parents were expected to fix it. We had the bell rolled back out and the lacquer frosted but the band director only cared that the dents were out. The repair guy did a great job and didn’t even leave any obvious creases. But yes we had to pay, and it never occurred to us to question that.

Were the big 4 valve Bb horns too much for middle schoolers to handle? Yes, quite likely that is so.

When I was in grad school getting my Master’s my final project was making a case for updating the pedagogy associated with beginning tuba players. I did a survey of all the local band directors and asked them to complete a questionnaire. Many of them did complete it. It showed the common practice was to switch a player from another brass instrument to tuba, playing a small 3 valve instrument. The premise of my project was that it would be much better if band directors cultivated their tuba players by starting them on the tuba, just as they would beginners on any other instrument, and doing so on a 4 valve instrument. That way they would learn to use the fourth valve from the start. I justified my position in many ways. In hindsight though, I know my premise was faulty. It sounded good on paper, but I did not take into account the added weight of the 4th valve, the fact that the manufacturers only put 4th valves on larger instruments, and the difficulties a small 6th grader may have handling such an instrument.

Eb as a beginner’s tuba? One thing that hasn’t been brought up about that yet is that the biggest reason for their popularity with band directors 50, 60, 70 years ago was that they could take a trumpet player, switch them to Eb tuba, and tell them to pretend that the music was in treble clef, subtract 3 flats from the key signature, and use their same trumpet fingerings that they were used to. Same logic is used in writing baritone parts in treble clef- for easily switching trumpet players. But now Eb tubas have disappeared from schools and everyone uses Bb. So contrary to my graduate thesis, the best horn is a small three banger.

In my teaching career I have had the opportunity to play a lot of different school tubas. The best thing I ever saw that addressed the problems beginning middle school tuba players was the DEG Commuter tuba. I know, I’ve read some posts about this horn and they didn’t get a lot of love, but it was small, very easy to handle, had a detachable bell, and was easy to play. The intonation problems weren’t any worse than any other 3 valve tuba, it was solidly built (made by Willson!), and came with 2 bells, one brass, one gold-colored fiberglass. The idea was, leave the brass bell at school (it had its own fiber case, kind of like a drum case) and keep the fiberglass bell at home. Then all you would have to transport back and forth was the body, which fit into a case about the size of a baritone case. This encouraged at-home practice. I really liked the concept. Too bad these horns are no longer made.

Just my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.

Addendum: I just noticed the trumpet player to Eb tuba music reading “trick” was referenced in the post in the other forum that the above link connects to. So I guess it was mentioned in a way.