ignorance, habit, or what?

[bloke]

considering pricing, the fact that Miraphone even offers an economy version of the 186 (which makes it even more competitive), the fact that the included "case" with this other make is a piece of junk, intonation, and general repairability, which would any band director choose these things (OK...and I don't particularly blame them for not being familiar with the John Packer model JP379BB at half the price) over Miraphone model 186 tubas?

This is a thankless/routine/annoying repair (smushed-in 4th circuit elbow) with this make/model, but something rarely having to be dealt with when repairing a Miraphone model 186.

bloke "the politics of groupthinking incurious brand name recognition/regurgitation"

TWO different URL's - just in case one of them doesn't work for someone:

[Breavdah]

Yamaha hate again? Can't forget how the branch above the bottom bow sticks out further than the bottom bow...so every time it gets set down from a chair, that branch bangs the chair seat. Even adult owned ones (well, college. But at least auditioned.) are mangled there.

[bloke]

easy to hate.
They suck up the most taxpayer money, are remarkably mediocre, and I have to charge the most to repair them (both the big top actions and the rotaries) because they always end up getting torn up the worst… I still can’t make as much per hour repairing them, because they get torn up so badly that I usually have to make some sorts of compromises on pricing out their repairs.

[matt g]

Is this all Yamaha’s fault?

I can imagine that trying to put together bid packages, as a vendor, it’s gotta be easier when one company can cover all the bases and isn’t in what seems to be a constant state of flux (like UMI, Conn/Selmer/Bach, whatever).

That and the fact that the current lineup has changed very little in 4 decades. Couple that with a strong marketing campaign, and you have a brand that has brand recognition which, admittedly a fallacy, translates into quality.

I understand the frustration when band directors are throwing away serious cash on mediocre instruments. They likely just don’t know any better.

[bloke]

Yamaha has done a good job of presenting themselves as the “safe“ choice (singular).

Band directors – in general – have done a poor job of researching the best choices (plural).
That having been said - when some directors actually try to do this - they are assaulted online by the same sorts of freak juries that we encounter on tuba discussion lists when someone trolls a list and ask a question such as “Which is the best tuba?” (1000 subscribers: 1000 answers)

Taxpayers - always catch hell, as they are continuously victimized by public sector non-experts (who buy stuff from the best talker or the most expensive maker - and maybe stuff that’s not even needed at all)…

… I walk into band rooms all the time where brand new garbage $11000 sousaphones have been purchased, whereby far superior better ugly/brown ones (which don’t even need valve rebuild jobs) are sitting up on high shelves - sousaphones that could be made sparkly-shiny again for about half the money spent for the new ones.

Setting aside how much we like or dislike this particular person, I believe we all recall when a new Air Force One was about to be built, a new president just happened to know quite a bit about airplanes, knew people who understood the costs of installing various types of technology which were added to the plane, and realized how much the taxpayers were being gouged. The price ended up being lowered astonishingly, percentagewise.

Again, I just don’t see much motivation to save money or spend it efficiently when it is not one’s own money…

… and then there’s the epic quantity of severe damage done to publicly-owned equipment (absurdly careless and/or malicious) which occurs in our post-Orwellian world, versus how publicly-owned equipment (several decades ago) actually used to wear out.

bloke “apologizing for discussing a pretty gritty subject, rather than asking which tuba stand I should buy, or where to buy an under-$600 leather bag for a goofy-size tuba…

… but – retreating back to the specific from the general as a postscript - so many of these instruments have been purchased (whereby their buyers could’ve purchased Miraphone 186’s), that – by now – Miraphone could have built and dedicated an entire large manufacturing room to simply producing 186s”

[Mary Ann]

What I have realized is that the majority of these band directors have grown up in the generation of "we want pretty" and no concept of quality. You can't buy ANYTHING in the way of an appliance now that isn't throw-away. Just go read the reviews on anything from washing machines to microwaves, and you'll see a pretty large percentage of them saying the thing quit after a very short time. This is the expectation level -- and why they are willing to pay that kind of money for something has to do with the type of indoctrination called advertising. which is what sales people do. When I was considering moving away (yes this is on topic) my dental hygenist told me to consult periodontists in the new area to find out who the good dentists were. Same goes here -- band directors should consult repair people to find out what the good instruments are, but they don't.

[bloke]

… or if they are in a bad situation (where a huge percentage of the children are absolutely incorrigible, and a band director is fiscally responsible), it seems to me that it would be best to repair what they have or buy the cheapest possible stuff.
There’s a tremendous amount of contempt for “Walmart instruments”, but - truth be told – most of those things – these days – actually work OK.

[matt g]

I remember seeing lots of Miraphones (Mirafones) in band programs that were purchased in the 1970s and 1980s. I would sometimes encounter players from these programs in various all-this and youth-that ensembles as a high schooler. I would have my personally owned (Mirafone) 186 BBb with me. These other kids would often remark how nice my horn looked because, in some cases, the kids using these high quality horns were not careful when setting them on the bell and the bell would bend/warp. As a result, the kranz would separate, look ugly and buzz at random frequencies.

I’ve seen a lot of beat up 186s. I’ve also known techs that liked to repair them because they claimed the brass was easier to work. But it’s still reason to stand that the kranz feature becomes a bug with clumsy kids. Cheaper bells just fold and don’t offer fun resonance. I do understand that Miraphone started offering tubas (student line or whatever) that no longer had the “bell wreath” that would solve this issue. Maybe it was too late in some cases?

The striking irony with the YBB-641 is that it’s gotten worse over time. The first runs with those two piece leadpipes (made when they also made that YCB-661 that was an interesting horn) weren’t terrible. Probably because a lot of, if not all, of the major assembly is in China now.

While on the topic of not buying Yamaha rotary tubas for teens, Getzen selling those Melton 20s and 25s didn’t gain much traction. One could argue that those could similarly offer better quality than the Yamaha (although not quite as point and shoot with intonation) if Besson/Meinl-Weton/Whoever were marketing them to schools. I think that’s another point towards Yamaha doing a better job owning the supply chain.

Editing to add:

viewtopic.php?p=47928#p47928

Per the list in that thread, band directors could be buying B&S 103s or 3301s for around $8k. The 25 isn’t listed, although I’m pretty sure it’s still sold in Europe.

[bloke]

Miraphone offers "French rim" (ie. no kranz) bells, as well as (as with Yamaha) brass inner slide tubes.
These things both lower the cost.
In the past, these options were referred to as "S" (student) series.

I don't view rotary tubas as a good purchase choice for any institution (even not many universities, based on the level of damage that I encounter). The lever carriages (as well as the rotor stems, which present huge problems, as so few "techs" know how to properly fit replacement rotors to casings - much less know how to obtain them) end up being mangled/bent/broken when tubas are - inevitably/endlessly/seemingly-daily knocked over.

Front-action piston tubas (subject to the same absurdly severe abuse as other configurations of tuba) are always the easiest to put back as they were.

186 Miraphone damage:
Compared to YBB-641, only the outer parts suffer damage that absolutely requires being addressed, whereas - with the YBB-641 instruments - the inner tubing often ends up mangled. Also: the detachable braces are annoying, and (most often) one side of them (for repair) requires un-soldering anyway. The only purpose of that system is ease-of-polishing-and-lacquering (ie. to simplify manufacturing).

[LargeTuba]

Yamaha makes some great tubas.
The 822 F is amazing
The 822 CC is okay
The 861 F is Amazing
The 861 Cc is amazing
The Yeb-321 Is an amazing tuba
I like the YBB-321 more than most
The YEP-321 Euphonoum is great
The Yamayork is great

I don’t get your beef with Yamaha Tubas. I like them.

Yamahas, Conns, Miraphones all sent the same.

[jtm]

When my kids were still in high school, the band had fairly recent Miraphone rotary Bb tubas. They might have been S versions; I didn't pay enough attention. There were some old YBB-321s in the attic, but they were for emergencies. This is a central Texas band, though, so it might be more normal to see Miraphones in the schools here.

I have a 1965 Bb 186 that spent its first 25 years in Arizona school bands. For all I know, they replaced it with a Yamaha.

[bloke]

Yamaha makes some great tubas.
The 822 F is amazing
The 822 CC is okay
The 861 F is Amazing
The 861 Cc is amazing
The Yeb-321 Is an amazing tuba
I like the YBB-321 more than most
The YEP-321 Euphonoum is great - yes...special purpose (jazz / tuba player high-tessitura doubling) - re: small bore/small shank receiver), but high priced for a non-chromatic school instrument, and the valve casings - due to their design (thin -walled with no relief area at the top - trap the pistons, if the top caps are over-torqued and/or if there's scale build-up.
The Yamayork is great - Were I compelled to play a 6/4 C York-knock-off, this is the easiest one to coax towards good intonation...but I don't care for that style of tuba, and I'm not compelled.

I don’t get your beef with Yamaha Tubas. I like them.

Yamahas, Conns, Miraphones all sent the same.

Those not highlighted: I have absolutely no use-for/fondness-for any of these (just too old/tired/lazy to deal with epic intonation pitfalls...and Yamaha certainly are not the only manufacturer of instruments of this description), other than my ($100-bought) YEP-321 (for the special purpose outlined). The 321 E-flat tuba plays pretty darn good (down to A), but there's only one on-the-fly truly-usable/on-the-money pitch (2-3-4 "low G") between the lower A and the fundamental E-flat. Their bells (purchased as a separate part) are expensive - and take nearly a year (in my experience) to get from Japan, but are useful (probably the only currently-manufactured bell in the world that fits this description) in converting a 19-inch bell 3+1 compensating E-flat to a traditional/brass band (15" bell) 3+1 compensating E-flat.
Again, as the vast majority of wind instruments are institutionally owned, the two (in particular, which are commonly seen in schools: YBB-641 and YBB-321) tear up (given the same routine horrible abuse) worse than many of the other makes.
...My topic, here, was the YBB-641 (yet expanded to the YBB-321), and not any of those seldom-purchased-by-anyone (tuba) models (though I consider all of those to be non-starters - for reasons expressed - as well).

That manufacturer makes some darn good clarinets (Buffet knock-offs), flutes, horns, trumpets, saxophones (particularly: baritone saxophones - possibly: the best baritone saxophone ever designed/built)...The trombones are put together quite well, but I just don't see that many (sure: "some") players-of-note playing them. My 1980's Yamaha bass trombone bell section...?? (great for my project, and - for literally less than $20, though torn up) I was prompted (just as with the $100 YEP-321) to move on it.

[sweaty]

Retired band director here. I agree with Bloke. My sons' middle school band had the 321's and the high school band has the 641's. Mediocre quality, pro-level price. Like you, I hate waste. I contacted the office that does the purchasing for this large school system, explained the situation, and gave much better examples to purchase. They acknowledged it, but I doubt anything was changed.

[bloke]

Retired band director here. I agree with Bloke. My sons' middle school band had the 321's and the high school band has the 641's. Mediocre quality, pro-level price. Like you, I hate waste. I contacted the office that does the purchasing for this large school system, explained the situation, and gave much better examples to purchase. They acknowledged it, but I doubt anything was changed.

Thanks so much for reading for content – as I myself am guilty of sometimes skipping over details when people post, and only being triggered by a key words or sentences, rather than paragraphs or complete posts..

Again, none of their parenthetical tuba models interest me in the least, and I’m just talking about the high priced full-size stuff that they sell to schools.

Not only does it hurt the taxpayer when they have to buy this stuff, but – even when I have to charge a lot to fix it, because it takes way more time to fix these two models then so many other models - my own taxes actually end up being raised to pay for my own charges that I charge the local government to fix this stuff.

… and again, examples of this type of this (“We buy this make/model, because we do…”) in non-musical disciplines (and non-academic applications) - I have to believe - are legion.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I too have been frustrated at the number of times that wasteful tuba purchasing has been used to directly justify increased taxation. It was the only thing people were talking about during the recent mid-terms!

[bloke]

The real problem is the debt service on all of those Campagnolo racing tuba-carry bicycle trailers that were purchased by the previous administration.

My understanding is that there are - additionally - 800 Quonset huts full of snow tires for them.