Leadpipe change?

[Grumpikins]

So last night i went caroling with some guys. I used my 1936 HNWhite king 1240 tuba. I havent played this horn much in years and i had difficulty getting notes below C1 to come out. I wonder if a larger bore leadpipe would help? Otherwise, this horn sounded great. Aside from being flat due to the near 20 degree temp we had. Looking for more experienced tech input on this. Thanks.

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

[the elephant]

Have you always been unable to make that register work on that tuba? If this is a new thing then it is probably "Operator Error". Heh, heh, heh…

Or it could be leaking.

These tubas do not usually have issues with the leadpipe and I would not alter yours. Perhaps it needs a NEW leadpipe more than a DIFFERENT one. It could have cracks along the seam. These pipes were frequently bent with the seam hidden, so it could split there over time if the pipe has been jerked around pretty hard in the past. I have had several of these where the seams had split. I did not know it until the pipe was removed and could be checked. Also, pinholes can develop over time from red rot or other issues. Dent removal can cause small cracks, too. Leadpipes from that era have proven to be pretty brittle, in my limited experience.

I would NOT alter the leadpipe design. I would have a tech do the soapy water test on the leadpipe to see if it has a leak. If it does, it can be removed and possibly repaired. Or a new leadpipe can be purchased or made.

I would not go bigger with this tuba; it is a very well-balanced instrument in this regard.

As far as other leaks, I have not ever had one that affected response, just intonation, but leaks in such a small pipe can do weird things. I would spend a few hours very conscientiously working on long tones to make sure it is not you BEFORE I spend any money and time trying to find fault with your tuba.

Best of luck, and make sure to let us know what your results are. Perhaps if you know more specific stuff it will be easier to help you diagnose the issue.

[Grumpikins]

Well. Very true about operator error, as my chops are quite out of shape. I was pondering this because i have no trouble with these notes on my mienl weston. And i totally forgot that this leadpipe also doubles as the main tuning slide. Otherwise, i agree that this horn is very balanced. It is a wonderful player. Thats why im thinking about this. Im really considering making this my everyday horn.

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

[the elephant]

Not a criticism at all, just things to think about before you start altering the design of an otherwise decent design. The main question being (again) was this how it played for you back in the day, too, or is this new? Also, please have some other players try it out to see whether it is you or the tuba. All these things help ad diagnostic tools that can pinpoint a lot of things without ever applying a torch flame to your baby.

Best of luck, and please keep posting questions to help discover what the issue *could* be. Eventually, you will have to have a tech look at it, but coming in armed with a lot of information will speed the tech along and keep the labor costs down.

[bloke]

1240's feature these two things:

- way-too-long #1 and #3 valve circuits, as a compromise so as combinations 1-3 and 1-2-3 aren't terribly sharp

- old valves and old casings, which may very well (depending on how diligently the instrument was lubricated over the years) be leaky.

I played a 1240 in high school in the early-mid 1970's (bought new by the school in the later 1950's - when the school was built) with terribly-TERRIBLY worn valves...
...Even when I pulled the pistons out of the King sousaphone (up on the top shelf in the instrument room, as we had moved on to "modern" fiberglass sousaphones) and swapped the pistons, the CASINGS on that tuba were ALSO dogged out. (ok...The school system also had a five-man repair shop, and I know of some of their "techniques" - at that time - to "clean" valves...so they may well have ruined them...??) School tuba players have never been much on "valve oil"...I oil each of my instruments before each time I play them. I bought one of my tubas new forty years ago. The rotors are fine, because I always have oiled them prior to playing them. You may be doing the same thing (??), but perhaps previous owners/users did not... ' sorta like the fourth owner of a car being the first one to diligently change the oil (ie. "too late").

mouthpipes:
I've seen King mouthpipes that featured a slightly larger small end and (later in the 1990's - when the 2340 and 2341 alterations to the old 1240/1241 designs were made) slightly smaller small end; they both play fine.

mouthpieces:
Most any mouthpiece that works on most tubas works fine on most any King.

Have another "pretty good" player (maybe not someone "amazing" who might well be able to "blow past" any sort of problem) play it and see what happens. If you have a repair guy within an hour or two who also plays the tuba fairly well, that might be another good person to visit.

[Three Valves]

I havent played this horn much in years and i had difficulty getting notes below C1 to come out.

Henny Youngman's Dr. says, "Don't play that!"

[Grumpikins]

Upon further reflection, i believe the problem is me in that i am really used to my other horn and mp combo. This horn has a much smaller bore diameter and my big butt mp doesnt fit well in its receiver so i had to use a conn hellberg mp which about .01 smaller. I also know that my lazy buns need to practice more.

My ulterior motive in this post is my deliberation as to possibly sell my mw cc tuba and switch back to bbb. This king tuba, despite some peculiarities, sounds fantastic. At this point in my life (career?), the cc tuba is like driving a Lamborghini for daily errands, grocery getter, teenager taxi. Any serious professional tuba work that would benefit from the mw is not on my horizon anymore. And thats ok. Switching back to bbb as a "daily driver" would give more accesible options such as i want to pick up a sousaphone and an eb tuba which (i have no experience here) shares harmonics (fingerings) with the bbb? Theres a fella on the forum trying to sell an early king eb that would fit really nicely with my bbb.

Im having dificulty with this because if i sell the mw, i will likely never be able to afford to buy a horn of that caliber again. Its a really fantastic horn.

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

[Breavdah]

Anything that old is of marginal utility. It's probably gorgeous, because a lot of man-hours went into its construction back then, but those men...A didn't have the best tools or B didn't know exactly scientifically what they were doing.

The earliest tubas that work to modern standards, to modern range volume and speed, without constant fiddling and babying, are probably 50's built.

A fat opening leadpipe can take the blat out low range attacks much as a deeper mouthpiece does, but won't extend range and if notes aren't locking in that problem could worsen.

[bloke]

There actually is some "science", now, that helps manufacturers come up with "best compromise" tuning characteristics.

I'm really glad that the later 1980's - 1990's big-ol'-mouthpipes fad has passed. The "big-ol'-mouthPIECES fad is hanging on a bit, but quite a few players are figuring that out the tradeoffs involved with that, as well.

To Wade's point, tuba players playing styles, strengths, and flaws vary a great deal, and (it seems to me) manufacturers appear to stick stuff together (for obvious reasons) to appeal to the greatest number of potential consumers. (Maybe...??) closed embouchures, pinched playing, and other factors often define that (depending on who was consulted). I find that I have to shorten some factory-built instruments for my own use. That Jens Bjorn Larsen gentleman is quite a player indeed and - obviously, evidenced in the the music and sonic characteristics that he produces - he's absolutely doing everything "right"...so it's no wonder that (as he was the exclusive consultant regarding that model's design, and as just one example) the main and other slides on the 5450 that I owned were all within the proper parameters. I've mentioned this before, but it's my strong suspicion that (along with ditching the gigantic mouthpipe tube and slapping their ever-popular 3/4" bore piston valveset on it) the 5450 is a "science-corrected" reissue of the ORIGINAL model 2155 (which was a forgotten-by-many-and-unknown-to-most very large bore ROTARY instrument, which sported wretched intonation).

I'm having to do a great deal of things to a tuba I just recently acquired, but (again) the "science" applied defines a really nice combination of acoustical characteristics, along with easy tuning characteristics. (Per typical, I'm just having to shorten a few things - including the main instrument and the #1 slide circuit - in retracted position.)

A whole bunch of tuba models of the past (as previously stated) were beautifully crafted but difficult tools with which to produce music. The basic King and York 4/4 B-flat designs (old-school valve circuit lengths notwithstanding) were successful, the Miraphone 186 model B-flat model was successful (with the C version of the past often being just as successful, but not always), and a few others (and I'm referring mostly to "easy" intonation characteristics). Curiously, the dirt-floored Communist DDR factory (which produced a really nice-playing standard size rotary model B-flat, along with some dubious models) ended up producing (arguably, obviously) the best F tuba produced to date - beginning over four decades ago. During the last four decades or so of "tuba model explosion", some wonderful models were created - along with some really expensive/really wretched models.