The "5-2-3-4 is horribly sharp for the pitch one whole step above the fundamental" problem solved (on ONE model of tuba)

[bloke]

Typically - when tuba players with generic front-action piston valvesets encounter this pitch (mostly: with that type of valveset - on C tubas), they frantically reach over to the #4 slide and pull it out c. 2 - 3 inches (4 - 6 inches additional tubing) in order to achieve the proper length of tubing for a 5-2-3-4 (C tuba) "double low" D. It's not convenient nor graceful, but it's a work-around.

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me...??
I've been scratching my head with this gigantic 5-rotary B-flat tuba (many posts of mine regarding) - Miraphone model 98.

There IS a 4th slide "over there", but it's even MORE "way over there" than with the tubas described above the === line, and - simply - impractical.

OK...This tuba does offer "sousaphone quality" so-called false/privilege tones...so (mostly) I've been playing that pitch with 3rd valve, and it's - well... - "fine", but I would also like to have the "real" valve combination (5-2-3-4) be usable (rather than 20 c. sharp) as well...

...I finally came up with a not-terribly-difficult-to-fabricate and FAR-EASIER-to-execute solution.

Take a look at the looped-over #5 slide (right next to the #1 slide (the #1 of which I just sank down lower by c. 5/8" for second-space/line C/B intonation considerations.

If I have Miraphone send me another rotor, a bit more (I've already bought some) inside/outside 21.2" bore nickel slide tubing, and (already have) a #2 slide bow, I can take advantage of my left hand ALREADY being in that position, and push a spring-loaded trigger activating (sure...) a 6th "dependent" rotor to lengthen the #5 slide - which will render the 5234 "double low" C as dead on.

Often (if not usually) adding a special feature such as this defines discovering addition uses for it, but - at this time - I can't imagine what those would be...

anyway...

[bloke]

[russiantuba]

The same fingering is quite sharp on my 1291CC, sometimes I use 1345 on it.

I still think a main tuning slide trigger, if one were to be installed ala Besson euphoniums, might be the best option (?).

[bloke]

...not for me, and not for just one pitch, and 5134 is just as far off the other way.

This is just a math problem (with every single 5th-valve/long-whole-step tuba) and not an isolated bugle taper problem.

All of this began with composers using midi keyboards and midi playback. Their electronic sample of a tuba can play those pitches with ease, they've heard tuba player colleagues play those pitches as isolated events, and - thus - they assume that they can just write them into music as if the production of those pitches are casual events.

A whole bunch of people probably disagree with me but I'm an "a valve is always better than a slide" type of person.

I'm also a "column of air vibrating" rather than an "air flow/CFM's" type of person.

[Kirley]

It looks like you have that 5th valve pulled out quite far. Is that it's normal playing position?

In this design, the rotary valve replaces the 5th valve circuit slide crook?

Will it clear the 5th valve connecting rod?

[bloke]

It looks like you have that 5th valve pulled out quite far. Is that it's normal playing position?

In this design, the rotary valve replaces the 5th valve circuit slide crook?

Will it clear the 5th valve connecting rod?

Good observation. Based on the other slides' default positions, that's the best place for me for low E, D-sharp, C-sharp, and B-natural.

I could permanently make those inside slide tubes longer, but - rather than that - I'm thinking about inserting some slightly loose fitting tubing spacers fabricated from inside slide tubing (that can be retrieved).

...so yes:
For my own use - for as long as I own it - that's where that slide is going to sit, and everything should clear.

I'm not going to order these parts from Christian right away, but am going to think about it for just a little bit.
It looks like it would be easiest to flick the lever with my left hand pinky finger. I don't see that as a problem, as I can make the lever have a nice little concave shape to it that catches the finger easily and then returns to the other position on its own. It's certainly less of a deal to move a lever with a pinky finger than to move the entire hand the better part of two feet over to the left suddenly and around obstacles, and then move something large, and move it an exact amount.
Again, I'm thinking it over...

Rather than as drawn thoughtlessly, the little lever will probably hinge from the right hand slide tube just above the rotor body, and be connected to a couple of Minibal links that thrust downward.

... I'm not a tuba-god, but I'm pretty good and I'm hired to work with people who are either better than I am or are actual gods on their instruments. Anything I can do that can easily remedy a shortcoming, I'm probably willing to do it.

...Lately, I've been playing quite a few various movements of the Bach cello suites (you know: music...bare-nekid music) an octave lower than written, on this thing. You know what? Being that C is the lowest pitch on the cello, I run into those a bunch - playing through that stuff.

[bloke]

clearance:

Those tighter-than-second-valve-slide bows will be replaced with #1 slide bows.
Those will add approximately 4 inches of length, which would dictate that I would push the #5 slide in 2 additional inches.
This will also allow clearance for the thickness of a rotor body as well as (with the custom-knuckles rotor) allow for clearance above the #5, #1, and #2 rotor action arms.

How many 6-rotor kaiser B-flat tubas are there, out there...??

I believe there's a 7-rotor B-flat (valves mounted on one of those extra-tall King one-less-loop King tubas), but - though it takes up a bunch of space - it's not a 6/4 kaiser.

[tclements]

Gotta pull the 4th slide a few inches, is all...

[bloke]

Gotta pull the 4th slide a few inches, is all...

How much would you charge me to sit next to me and pull out the fourth slide for the low C's and then push it back in for me?

When I'm playing through these Bach cello suites, I have about a 30th of a second to take my hand off the first slide (which is located down in a pocket on this particular instrument), move it way over there to the fourth slide, pull the fourth slide out, push it back in, and then put my hand back down into that first slide pocket.

I think I'd rather flick my ring finger on my left hand - leaving my left hand in position on the first slide.

[cjk]

IMHO, The dependent rotor would be better served being dependent on the 4th valve instead of the 5th and be approximately a flat half step. more uses then.

Actually the more I think about it, maybe the dependent valve in the 4th valve tubing could be a flat whole step and the existing 5th valve shortened to a flat half step. A flat half step might be more potentially useful in other registers (like 1+2+6 for a sharp 2+3).

But aren't these $2000 solutions to $50 problems?

Your previously proposed 3rd valve pull arm loop thing would have been one way to solve this problem for much less $$?

If you're considering adding a valve and building linkage, wouldn't a 3rd, 4th, or 5th valve slide trigger be a less expensive and more conventional solution?

Would a second valve trigger solve this problem? Wouldn't that be the most "otherwise useful" thing to do here?

[cjk]

Doesn't the sharp 2+3 old Mirafone interval solve this math problem with 3+4+5 ?

Or 1+2+4+5 which is first valve adjustable, so no moving the left hand off the first valve slide. (with the old Miraphone 5th valve interval)

On a Bb tuba, iirc, the stinkyish note with the old Miraphone interval would be the low Db (flat 1+4+5 or sharp 1+3+4 both of which involve the first valve--where your hand wants to be (again with the old Miraphone 5th valve interval, not the flat whole step which I assume it has now).

[bloke]

1245 - with the first slide pulled out as far as it will go - is nowhere close to a C.

Yes, either of those two 5th valve lengths - with no sixth valve - leaves the low range with one badly out of tune pitch.

[cjk]

1245 - with the first slide pulled out as far as it will go - is nowhere close to a C.

Yes, either of those two 5th valve lengths - with no sixth valve - leaves the low range with one badly out of tune pitch.

sorry, those fangerings in my post were for the old Miraphone sharp 2+3 interval. I edited my post to make more sense.

Agreed about the missing sixth valve.

[bloke]

Another way to accomplish this occurred to me that doesn't involve installing a sixth rotor but - truth be told - it's just as much trouble.

[arpthark]

Another way to accomplish this occurred to me that doesn't involve installing a sixth rotor but - truth be told - it's just as much trouble.

Get yelled at for playing your C 20 cents sharp?

[bloke]

That's precisely it!

It's as if you live inside my head.

[cjk]

Another way to accomplish this occurred to me that doesn't involve installing a sixth rotor but - truth be told - it's just as much trouble.

what was that?

[Bob Kolada]

Another way to accomplish this occurred to me that doesn't involve installing a sixth rotor but - truth be told - it's just as much trouble.

Second valve slide kicker?

[bloke]

Another way to accomplish this occurred to me that doesn't involve installing a sixth rotor but - truth be told - it's just as much trouble.

Second valve slide kicker?

Thanks Bob.
I'm getting closer and closer to a good solution. Widening/lengthening those bows - which double over - not only lowers the position of the fifth slide (right down next to the number one slide bow), but also offers an easier way to grab that slide with other fingers of the left hand which are already placed on the number one slide.. so I'm darn close to a workable on-the-fly smooth solution for playing a tuned double low C without resorting to a false tone.

[Kirley]

I'm getting closer and closer to a good solution. Widening/lengthening those bows - which double over - not only lowers the position of the fifth slide (right down next to the number one slide bow), but also offers an easier way to grab that slide with other fingers of the left hand which are already placed on the number one slide.. so I'm darn close to a workable on-the-fly smooth solution for playing a tuned double low C without resorting to a false tone.

You’ll be able to pull both slides (1&5) at the same time?