Dumb question time: Why do some horns have copper colored lead pipes

[TriStateFans]

I've noticed that some horns have copper colored lead pipes, while the rest of the horn is brass colored.

What is the reason for this please? (NOTE: Both the real and humorously false answers appreciated... the nuttier, the better).

[bloke]

They are made of copper, and copper is resistant to rotting versus yellow brass.

Pricey instruments tend to use nickel-brass as a rot resistant material, but copper is a less costly rot resistant non-ferrous malleable metal.

[arpthark]

The higher the copper content of the brass, the more corrosion-resistant it is. I've noticed the copper mouthpipe to be pretty common in a lot of Chinese tubas.

Corrosion ("red rot") occurs when zinc leaches out of brass, leaving a brittle copper lattice. This can create pinholes in bows or tuning slides. The less zinc in brass, the less this occurs, so manufacturers up the copper percentage. If you see instruments made from "gold brass" or "red brass," these alloys have progressively higher ratios of copper.

Some German brands sort of go the other way and use "nickel silver" or "nickel brass" or "German silver" (all the same name for a copper + nickel alloy) in the mouthpipe or valve section, which is also more corrosion-resistant than normal brass. Plus, it looks really cool.

[bort2.0]

They are made of copper, and copper is resistant to rotting versus yellow brass.

Pricey instruments tend to use nickel-brass as a rot resistant material, but copper is a less costly rot resistant non-ferrous malleable metal.

Actual copper, or gold brass?

[Mary Ann]

This is something I don't get --- my (French) horn is gold brass, and the third F valve slide has two spots where red rot is clearly starting to happen. Eventually I'll probably put gorilla tape over those spots when I find out I can't afford a new slide. Why there, is beyond me, unless somehow the way it sits in the case, any left-over spit sits there. But I always, always, always empty the horn before putting it in the case; however, as it cools off, quite possibly there is more condensation. You would think gold brass would not be susceptible; the leadpipe and the rest of the horn is fine; it's just those two spots on that valve slide.

[bloke]

This is something I don't get --- my (French) horn is gold brass, and the third F valve slide has two spots where red rot is clearly starting to happen. Eventually I'll probably put gorilla tape over those spots when I find out I can't afford a new slide. Why there, is beyond me, unless somehow the way it sits in the case, any left-over spit sits there. But I always, always, always empty the horn before putting it in the case; however, as it cools off, quite possibly there is more condensation. You would think gold brass would not be susceptible; the leadpipe and the rest of the horn is fine; it's just those two spots on that valve slide.

lacquered? not? make?

----------------------------
Probably is just as you claim...
NOT doubting you...
- I tend to consider the allow which bears the name "low brass" (80:20) as "gold brass".
- I recall (five decades ago) when there was a US-published MiraFone brochure which bragged "secret formula GOLD brass" (whereby I never saw any 80:20 alloy MiraFone tubas in the US until the early 1980's. (I love certain models of Miraphone tubas, but their [yellow] brass allow has always - in my experience - required being nursed, in order to avoid rotting...and the same goes with Vincent Bach "Stradivarius" trombone outside playing slide tubes and playing slide bows.)

https://dl.asminternational.org/alloy-d ... m=fulltext

TOO MUCH INFORMATION:
An early known-to-me US use of "low brass" was at the Conn plant in Elkhart, where instruments designated to be silver plated were built of this alloy, to strengthen the bond of the silver plating to the brass. (Later, the "copper strike" method was found to work just as well...Though - sure - silver plated yellow brass instruments - of course - are subject to rot, and - when silver plating bubbles up from the brass - that's telltale.
In the 1950's and 1960's "overhaul shops" - which ruined many wonderful brass instruments - would buff away the silver and buff satin finishes to smooth. Most old Conn instruments (which are lacquered gold brass, and have obviously been refinished and heavily buffed) were fabricated of 80:20 "low brass".

[matt g]

TOO MUCH INFORMATION:
An early known-to-me US use of "low brass" was at the Conn plant in Elkhart, where instruments designated to be silver plated were built of this alloy, to strengthen the bond of the silver plating to the brass. (Later, the "copper strike" method was found to work just as well...Though - sure - silver plated yellow brass instruments - of course - are subject to rot, and - when silver plating bubbles up from the brass - that's telltale.
In the 1950's and 1960's "overhaul shops" - which ruined many wonderful brass instruments - would buff away the silver and buff satin finishes to smooth. Most old Conn instruments (which are lacquered gold brass, and have obviously been refinished and heavily buffed) were fabricated of 80:20 "low brass".

On my Conn/King/Matt Walters tuba, there is a noticeable difference in color between the Conn monster Eb bell and bottom bow and the King upper bow and inner branches.

[bloke]

For any of the slide bows that I'm replacing on my Miraphone 98 - as I'm (just about as nutty as Wade) reconfiguring all of the slides with the exception of the second slide - (other than any new/suitable/old-new-stock 21.2mm bore slide bows where are here amongst my piles-o-crap) I'm replacing with 80:20 brass slide bows.

[Mary Ann]

The horn is an E. Schmid (not "Schmidt") unlacquered gold brass double, mid 1990s. It is not the same color as yellow brass, and not as pink as rose brass; I could probably find out what the ratios are from Schmid, if it mattered. Real purdy when shiny and I would post a pic if I could ever figure out how to get that to work. It's only shiny after an ultrasound cleaning and the last one was about ten years ago. I don't polish it because Schmid brass is very, VERY thin, which makes their instruments very light weight.

This page has a picture of one, but I don't know how well that color of the brass comes through.
https://www.woodheadhorns.co.uk/product ... -double-4/

[bloke]

OK...
thnx.
DEFINITELY NOT "lacquer that's the color of 80:20 brass (which is commonly done)...
particularly as it's unlacquered

[jonesbrass]

The horn is an E. Schmid (not "Schmidt") unlacquered gold brass double

Englebert Schmid makes some very fine horns! Still remember my wife playing them at the Frankfurt Musikmesse in the 1990s. IIRC She liked the Finke horns very much, too.

[pjv]

The horn is an E. Schmid (not "Schmidt") unlacquered gold brass double, mid 1990s. It is not the same color as yellow brass, and not as pink as rose brass; I could probably find out what the ratios are from Schmid, if it mattered. Real purdy when shiny and I would post a pic if I could ever figure out how to get that to work. It's only shiny after an ultrasound cleaning and the last one was about ten years ago. I don't polish it because Schmid brass is very, VERY thin, which makes their instruments very light weight.

This page has a picture of one, but I don't know how well that color of the brass comes through.
https://www.woodheadhorns.co.uk/product ... -double-4/

You need to stop the red rot.
-Scrub the tube(s) with crystal soda. This is about getting rid of oil & grease. Rinse.
-Let the insides soak for a while in natural vinegar. This is to stop the rotting process. Give it a good scrub then rinse thoroughly!
-Dry throughly (very important).
-Grease the affected area(s) thoroughly. Regularly running valve oil across the spots every day will also do the trick. This is your protection against further rotting.

Good luck.

[bloke]

Since horns are so cylindrical - and the Geyer-style plumbing has become so popular and somewhat standardized, you might be able to have that deteriorating portion pulled off, thrown in the trash, and replaced.

That haven't been said, as long as there are no actual holes, it's not going to play any better or worse.

[Mary Ann]

Schmids are still being made and sold. All I'd have to do would be buy a new slide, if I didn't want to use gorilla tape. I figure the horn is going to the grave with me, so am not really worried about its resale value, just as long as it plays. If I am ever able to play again, which at this point in time is looking iffy with the larynx event. Just so people who don't know what a Schmid is, know, replacement cost for one like mine is about $12k if I got a new one. The New York Phil horn section is using Schmids, except for their current on-trial first horn. (Phil Myers got fired, and he started the whole Schmid thing.)

[bloke]

ok then...Engelbert-Schmid?

yeah...My daughter could order that replacement slide (or slide bow only) for you.