Early 1900s Eb Horn parts?

[Grumpikins]

I was assisting our director with passing out music the other day. The pieces were all early 1900s. I have seen Eb horn parts many times but never seen an Eb horn. I assumed that Eb horn was a french horn keyed in Eb as usually the parts would be transposed by a talented hornist. However, researching Eb horn yields many different instruments. Some alto and tenor horns that resemble small baritone. Some Eb french horns. Hornucopia states that alto horns are generally an octave higher than french horn. I also note that civil war photos display saxhorns, baritone horns, occasional small tuba, and what looks like alto/tenor horns. And trumpets of course.

So im wondering which instrument would be period appropriate or composer intended for early 1900s wind ensemble pieces.

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[DonO.]

The appropriate horn would be an Eb alto horn. It gets a bit confusing because in English brass band literature the same instrument is inaccurately called a tenor horn. It is also called an altonium and colloquially in the US as a “peck horn”, so called because they often play repeated notes on the upbeat. They are all more or less the same thing, looking like a small euphonium and playing parts more or less in the French horn range, with more of a cornet-like mouthpiece. I imagine they were invented as an alternative to marching with an actual French horn, which is difficult. Probably a descendant of the saxhorn family.

[JRaymo]

Back more than 20 or so years ago custom music had a whole pallet of those back in the back just piled upon one another. I was able to pick one up for pretty cheap. A couple small dings in it but appeared to be new never used otherwise. Mine is a York master with a recording bell.


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[Grumpikins]

From the photos ive been looking at, it seems that they were periodically parallel. So, i am mildly considering finding one to double on as no one ever seems to play those parts. On the other hand, Im guessing that those parts are covered in other parts like saxophones and french horns. Possibly trombones, baritone. If im not busy on tuba. Well, its a loose consideration. Thank you for any and all info.

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[JRaymo]

I’ll try to post a picture of mine when I get a chance. I just bought it because I thought it was neat.


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[WC8KCY]

An E-flat "French" horn's bugle is twice as long as that of an E-flat alto horn, but is played an octave higher in the overtone series versus an alto horn. So, an E-flat horn and an E-flat alto playing the same written note will be in unison, making them interchangeable.

Open notes on an E-flat horn, starting with the C one ledger line below the treble clef staff and going up:
C E G Bb C D E F# G

Open notes on an E-flat alto, starting again with the C one ledger line below the treble clef staff and going up:
C G C E G (same as a trumpet and treble-clef baritone)

I had a Conn 14C F/E-flat alto, which looked like a small 14I bell-front euphonium. It had main tuning slide extenders to lower it from F to E-flat--if you opt for one of these, make sure they're included; the case had integral stowage for the E-flat extensions. It was really loud, easily able to single-handedly keep up with an overmanned trumpet section. If you want/need to be heard, you can't hardly miss with one of these. Ultimately, I found the 14C wonderful as a marching instrument, but just too strident for concert band use indoors.

I now have a Conn 6E E-flat "French Horn Alto", which is shaped like a right-handed piston-valve horn. According to Conn literature, it is intended as a substitute for a proper E-flat horn. As with a horn, you can deploy hand stopping to change timbre and correct intonation. It puts out slightly more volume than a horn.

I also have a Conn 4D horn in F with an E-flat crook, but it doesn't respond well with the E-flat crook installed.

For all-around use in concert band literature, I would opt for a bell-up alto and also invest in a Denis Wick wooden mute. As with an upright-bell euphonium, you'll be showering the ensemble and audience with indirect and reflected sound, rather than sending out a strident, marching-mellophone blast.

[JRaymo]

This is what I have. I don’t know if it’s what your referring to. I know it’s pitched in Eb. I thought it was York Master but only engraved York.


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[JRaymo]

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[donn]

So, i am mildly considering finding one to double on as no one ever seems to play those parts. On the other hand, Im guessing that those parts are covered in other parts like saxophones and french horns. Possibly trombones, baritone.

French horn for sure, trombone some of the time, never any woodwinds. Solid afterbeats.

[Grumpikins]

That horn is beautiful. What is that mouthpiece comparable to size wise? Trombone, trumpet, french horn? Hard to tell in the picture.

Buying one is a consideration down the road. Im a crazy guy and i love oddball instruments.

Also, would you (i) read the music like a trumpet as in its transposed and written C is Eb?

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[WC8KCY]

That horn is beautiful. What is that mouthpiece comparable to size wise? Trombone, trumpet, french horn? Hard to tell in the picture.

Buying one is a consideration down the road. Im a crazy guy and i love oddball instruments.

Also, would you (i) read the music like a trumpet as in its transposed and written C is Eb?

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The mouthpieces are slightly larger than the largest cornet mouthpieces.

The Yamaha 37C4 has a internal rim diameter of 18.6 mm, compared to 17 mm for a Bach 1 1/2C trumpet/cornet 'piece.

Yes, you use trumpet fingerings for an alto horn. The music is transposed, and written C (open) sounds as E-flat.

The York above is indeed a beauty! I'd still look for an upright alto as my primary instrument, however. With some patience, you could land both a bell-front and an upright alto with just a few hundred bucks invested. I paid $79 for my Conn 14C and nothing for my 6E; both came from my local music store, who was thrilled to finally see them go out the door.

[Breavdah]

This entire genre of instruments doesn't really "work". Intonation is way off by the top and the bottom of the staff, so really no more
usable low range than a trumpet. The newest mellophones from Yamaha are better, and maybe the British tenor horn which sounds like a muffled trombone.

[JRaymo]

That horn is beautiful. What is that mouthpiece comparable to size wise? Trombone, trumpet, french horn? Hard to tell in the picture.

Buying one is a consideration down the road. Im a crazy guy and i love oddball instruments.

Also, would you (i) read the music like a trumpet as in its transposed and written C is Eb?

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I bought what I thought was the largest mouthpiece I could for it. The mouthpiece is a Bach 3. I think it would probably play better if I had purchased a middle sized cup. My guess is it’s probably close to a flugelhorn mouthpiece but I wouldn’t know. I only bought it because the opportunity was there and I wanted something I thought might help me train my ears for upper register tuba playing.

The upright bell instruments are more useable and are more expensive because they use them in brass band. These were all bell front and just a mix of different brands. There are a couple dings in the bell from my daughter when she was little she called it her tuba.


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[donn]

"Fingering" depends on whose part you're reading. Could be for Eb alto horn, but sometimes you have to read from the French horn book.

I'm no expert player, but there's one in the household, and I've played one or another instrument on occasion. Have never had any trouble with intonation - it's about the easiest band instrument there is to play, and it has been around for over 150 years, so the design has been worked out. The alto horn is a member of the saxhorn family.

[Finetales]

At the time, any of the listed instruments might have played those parts. The part was far more important than the type of instrument playing it, and alto horn, circular mellophone, or proper "French" horn were all used. It was the Wild West for instruments of all kinds, but especially alto brass. Nowadays everyone uses French horns, but a mixed section of various kinds of alto brass was common back then. Based on old photographs of bands from the period, I would guess circular mellophones were the most common...everyone made them and they were cheaper and easier to play than French horns. Sometimes makers didn't make French horns at all!

I currently own 7 mellophones...I happen to like them just a bit. Both mellophones and alto horns are perfectly good instruments, and in some ways better than French horns for those kinds of parts. I would certainly rather play offbeats all day long on a mellophone or alto horn. (For a modern example of that, listen to some Mexican banda music - 2 alto horns ("charcheta") play the offbeats 100% of the time.)

I now have a Conn 6E E-flat "French Horn Alto", which is shaped like a right-handed piston-valve horn. According to Conn literature, it is intended as a substitute for a proper E-flat horn. As with a horn, you can deploy hand stopping to change timbre and correct intonation. It puts out slightly more volume than a horn.

I also have a 6E from 1918, as well as an 8E ballad horn from 1930. Conn and King both loved to invent fancy names for their instruments (see also "flugabone"), but both are really just the same wide-wrapped mellophone in different keys. The 4E was their F mellophone, with a tighter wrap and crooks to Eb, D, and C (just like my Buescher 25 mellophone). Literature from the time suggests that multi-crook F instruments were intended for orchestral use and often labeled as a "concert horn". The word "mellophone" took a while to become the established term.

The circular mellophone has a complicated history, while alto horn (called tenor horn in the UK) is pretty simple. American alto horns were made in F and Eb and in both bell up and bell front flavors. Marching mellophone is a different thing entirely and didn't come until the 1970s (1959 if you include the mellophonium), so you wouldn't see that instrument ever playing those parts.

[WC8KCY]

I also have a 6E from 1918, as well as an 8E ballad horn from 1930. Conn and King both loved to invent fancy names for their instruments (see also "flugabone"), but both are really just the same wide-wrapped mellophone in different keys. The 4E was their F mellophone, with a tighter wrap and crooks to Eb, D, and C (just like my Buescher 25 mellophone). Literature from the time suggests that multi-crook F instruments were intended for orchestral use and often labeled as a "concert horn". The word "mellophone" took a while to become the established term.

Interesting...how does the C/Bb 8E play compared to the Eb 6E? I see they both share the same angled piston configuration, which I find to be much more comfortable than the non-offset pistons found on most mellophones, such as the Pan American 58E.

My 6E has guide notches on the valveset tuning slides for pulling out to (probably) D and C. I've often wondered if Conn offered D and C crook for the 6E, or if crooks from a 4E, 5E, or Pan Am 62E would fit, enabling it to possibly play in Db, C, and Bb.

[Finetales]

Interesting...how does the C/Bb 8E play compared to the Eb 6E? I see they both share the same angled piston configuration, which I find to be much more comfortable than the non-offset pistons found on most mellophones, such as the Pan American 58E.

They really are the same instrument, just set in different keys. The only difference between my 6E and 8E other than the length of the slides is the bracing style, which is a product of the 12-year difference. If my 6E was also a 1930, the slide length would be the ONLY difference.

Still, the 8E in C plays and sounds pretty differently from my Buescher 25 when set in C. The 8E could be mistaken for a single French horn at higher volumes, it really has that horn like sound. And in many ways it pretty much is just a large bore C/Bb single horn. The 6E has a really sweet and colorful sound that's darker than the 8E, much darker than my Yamaha circular mellophone, but not as dark as the Buescher 25. In any key, the Buescher is so dark it almost sounds like an alto tuba. In C it has some of that horn-like edge the 8E has, but in a sweeter way. I had originally planned to only keep one circular mellophone out of the 3 I have (ballad horn not included), but they all sound so drastically different from each other that I'm more leaning towards keeping them all now.

My 6E has guide notches on the valveset tuning slides for pulling out to (probably) D and C. I've often wondered if Conn offered D and C crook for the 6E, or if crooks from a 4E, 5E, or Pan Am 62E would fit, enabling it to possibly play in Db, C, and Bb.

The period catalog scans I've seen have the 4E coming as standard with F, Eb, D, and C slides (4 main tuning slides, then 2 sets of slides - one for F/Eb, and one for D/C). The 6E is listed specifically as "Eb only" and doesn't have any crook options listed. The notches should be for high and low pitch, as it came with both HP and LP main slides (which mine has).

[WC8KCY]

The period catalog scans I've seen have the 4E coming as standard with F, Eb, D, and C slides (4 main tuning slides, then 2 sets of slides - one for F/Eb, and one for D/C). The 6E is listed specifically as "Eb only" and doesn't have any crook options listed. The notches should be for high and low pitch, as it came with both HP and LP main slides (which mine has).

Thanks for the information; it's awesome that we can compare notes on these rather uncommon instruments.

My 6E did not come with a case or an extra tuning slide; I've been on the lookout for a trashed/cheap 6E with good case and both tuning slides.

What mouthpiece(s) do you prefer to use with your mellophones?

[Finetales]

My 6E did not come with a case or an extra tuning slide; I've been on the lookout for a trashed/cheap 6E with good case and both tuning slides.

Good luck! 6Es are very rare to come by.

What mouthpiece(s) do you prefer to use with your mellophones?

They all like different things.

Conn 6E and 8E: Bach Corp 3 (mellophone)
Conn 16E: Conn 1 (the mouthpiece that Conn included with them)
Buescher 25: tenor horn mouthpiece, usually my Kelly 3W because it's better pitch-wise than my Denis Wick on mellophones
Yamaha YMP-201: Bach 5 (mellophone)
Yamaha YMP-201M: Hammond 5MP
King K-50: Benge Mello 6

[bloke]

Everyone seems to forget or ignore the fact that a whole bunch of the old single F French horns had auxiliary E-flat main slides, and even places marked on the other three slides for pulling out to E-flat.
I still have quite a few old E-flat main slides which I used to harvest French horn braces and slide tubing.

8 ft bugle C ballad horn: (as these have been previously mentioned)
I have one made in Czechoslovakia and in really fine condition. It was a $25 investment. Most people would mistake it for an old school E-flat mellophone. I plays quite well, asks for alternates for the fifth partial fingerings (1-2 & 2-3, instead of open and second valve), but that's about it. It's tons of fun, but I don't get it out very often. When I get really bored, I play Mozart horn concertos on that instrument as written.