Help telling what key a sousaphone is in, please

[domenicbetters]

Hey there. I am by no means a musician but my wife is. She's a tuba player and has wanted a sousaphone for a while now. I'm trying to find one for her and recently came across one being sold by a gentlemen near me, but neither he nor I know how to make sure its in the right key. I know most modern ones are in bb but some older ones are in eb. Is there a way for those less musically inclined to be able to tell them apart?

[arpthark]

Welcome to the forum! If there's any way you can post pictures, that would be a start. Send me a PM if you need help with pictures and I can assist, or use imgur.com.

Although there are exceptions, old Eb sousaphones feature a "false tube" that isn't connected to the main bugle of the sousaphone and is simply to help support the instrument on your shoulder. If it looks like there is a tube where your shoulder would go that isn't connected to anything, there's a good chance it's an Eb.

Here is an example of an old Eb where you can see the tube just sort of "ending" on the main body of the sousaphone:

[Tim Jackson]

Post a picture. Easy

[Tim Jackson]

That's an EEb Conn

[arpthark]

That's an EEb Conn

The picture I posted is just an example of an Eb sousaphone, not OP's picture.

[domenicbetters]

s-l1600.jpg (139.65 KiB) Viewed 1917 times

s-l1600 (1).jpg (125.09 KiB) Viewed 1917 times

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Here are some pics, if that helps.

[arpthark]

s-l1600.jpgs-l1600 (1).jpgs-l1600 (2).jpgHere are some pics, if that helps.

That is an Indian tenor sousaphone in Bb (not BBb) and it plays in the same range as a euphonium or trombone. They are wildly out of tune.

Stay away!

[domenicbetters]

oof. Thank you for the quick reply and good looking out. I appreciate it.

[2nd tenor]

Hey there. I am by no means a musician but my wife is. She's a tuba player and has wanted a sousaphone for a while now. I'm trying to find one for her and recently came across one being sold by a gentlemen near me, but neither he nor I know how to make sure its in the right key. I know most modern ones are in bb but some older ones are in eb. Is there a way for those less musically inclined to be able to tell them apart?

Pictures usually help you by looking at relative lengths (between Eb’s and BBb’s) of the first and third valve slides; those on BBb’s are noticeably longer and a BBb third valve slide might even double back on itself. If you can make the Tuba sound then the lowest note that you can play, without using the valves, gives its pitch; obviously you’ll need to take a tuner with you to identify that sounded pitch. Beware that Tubas are also available in CC and F, I doubt that Sousaphones come in those keys but just watch out for the unexpected.

It would be wise to try and find out what pitch Tuba your wife used to play - I’d want to buy the same pitch as that - and what music group she hopes to play it in (some might have seats for only one of the pitches).

[TriStateFans]

That is an Indian tenor sousaphone in Bb (not BBb) and it plays in the same range as a euphonium or trombone. They are wildly out of tune.

Stay away!

I've seen those horns in eBay ads, and I've always wondered if they took large-shank euphonium/trombone mouthpieces or what. I'd love to try one just for giggles (then promptly hand it right back to it's owner... I don't want one, just curious how it toots).

[the elephant]

Do not buy the Indian sousaphone. Just don't.

Please. For your wife. Don't do it.

It is a terrible instrument to play and is pitched an octave too high for her. It plays the same pitches as a euphonium or trombone.

I will say that these guys used to have the funniest sales videos on YouTube back in the day…

"This very top-quality tuba is in the eee-bee key. Do not make the mistake of the tuba being in the dead common bee-bee key, which is what the amateurs use. This one points conveniently to the rear so the band can follow you in the parades and festivities."


Yes, a bass trombone-sized mouthpiece…


This guy's demonstrations were simply loud, airy blasts and hoots. He never looked as pleased by this as his boss who did all the talking. The "deluxe case" is a cardboard hatbox affair with cloth straps and a cheesy felt liner glued in.

[York-aholic]

My easiest way to tell between an Eb and BBb sousaphone is the top of the third valve tubing. If there is a loop in it, its a BBb. If there isn't a loop (like in @arpthark 's picture), its in Eb. On sousaphones, I don't think I've seen an exception to that.

[donn]

[ edited to remove misunderstood quote and replace misidentified BBb sousaphone ]

American Standard (H N White) Eb sousaphone


Holton

1957!


King 1936


F A Reynolds


There's more, of course, just trying to cover the main US manufacturers. It seemed to me that early Conns might have gone this way too, but couldn't find any evidence.

[York-aholic]

In your quote of me, you left out that I was referring to an extra loop (pretzel? Curly cue) in the upper 3rd valve tubing, not referring to an extra loop in the main bugle (false branch tubing vs full circle Ebs). I agree with you that most makers had Eb sousaphones made both ways.

Your pictures (thank you for posting them), mostly show that. However, the first one pictured, the freshly overhauled “ H N White Eb sousaphone, 1932” isn’t an Eb. The curly cue in the upper 3rd and the way too long for Eb first valve tubing are tell tales.

Good looking horns.

If there is a loop in it, its a BBb. If there isn't a loop (like in @arpthark 's picture), its in Eb. On sousaphones, I don't think I've seen an exception to that.

H N White Eb sousaphone, 1932


Holton

1957!


King 1936


F A Reynolds


There's more, of course, just trying to cover the main US manufacturers. It seemed to me that early Conns might have gone this way too, but couldn't find any evidence.

[arpthark]

Yes, I was the guilty party there, but thanks for the info.

[donn]

In your quote of me, you left out that I was referring to an extra loop (pretzel? Curly cue) in the upper 3rd valve tubing, not referring to an extra loop in the main bugle (false branch tubing vs full circle Ebs).

Oops, sorry! I did miss that. Also agree regarding the key of the H N White, will see if I can fix the ID on that in the archive.

What do you think about this 1927 Buescher?

[JRaymo]

My easiest way to tell between an Eb and BBb sousaphone is the top of the third valve tubing. If there is a loop in it, its a BBb. If there isn't a loop (like in [mention]arpthark[/mention] 's picture), its in Eb. On sousaphones, I don't think I've seen an exception to that.

Probably the most commonly found “full circle” Eb. 1940s king 1261. Looks a lot like a BBb until you see how small it is next to a BBb.


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[York-aholic]

And it doesn't have the extra loop in the 3rd valve tubing...

[JRaymo]

And it doesn't have the extra loop in the 3rd valve tubing...

I should have read the other posts. Sorry.


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[humBell]

Loop in 3rd valve circuit is not an infallible indicator either.

Have seen one Eb with it. Admittedly it was still obviously Eb, as it had the pho tubing brace, and the aforementioned third valve circuit loop looked ridiculously short (maybe 2 inches long? been a while)

And i believe i've seen BBbs without the loop (although the examples which come to mind happen to be helicons... same with the BBbs with a shoulder brace, but that also feels like a different class of instrument, as that is more or less how most rotary helicons work: a body in front of ya, with the bell just looping round behind and braced there.)