This Has Morphed into a Finale Thread

[the elephant]

My issue was dealt with and I have moved on, but — for whatever reason — this thread has refused to die quietly and roll down onto the cornfield of Page 2.

Read up. Post. Have a great time.

[AvrTuba]

Have you tried unplugging it and plugging it back in?

I kid.

I'll show myself out.

[arpthark]

This might help:

https://www.finaleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5051

[bloke]

Relax the jaw and throat...slower air...

[Grumpikins]

Im just curious if its still flat if you have it play with a different instrument sound file like marimba or harpsichord? Like maybe you need an updated sound file for playback. Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-J327VPP using Tapatalk

[Jim Williams]

POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS: (I'm on PC; MAC should be similar)
1. If you are using VST (AU) instruments such as Garritan, make sure that your sample rates match at 44100. MIDI/AUDIO==>Audio setup==>Audio output==>Sample Rate as well as in your sample player. Discrepancy between 44100 and 48000 will cause pitch issues.
2. An expression or articulation may have been incorrectly set to affect pitchwheel. Make sure all are defined correctly.
3. Go into the MIDI Tool, Select all, and hit backspace. That will clear **ALL** MIDI data from the file.
4. Create an expression that sets pitchwheel to zero and place it in each staff. It can be hidden for printing purposes.

I have seen #1 on numerous occasions...#3 is a brute-force method.

If all else fails, send me the file & I'll look into it.

[BopEuph]

This might help:

https://www.finaleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5051

This would be a very unlikely situation, as you'd have to go through a lot of trouble to have set that up in the first place. Then again, if these were from downloaded MIDI files and someone's pitch wheel was broken, then it might be the reason.

Clearing MIDI data would probably solve this if it's a file-related issue. Clear MIDI data, and maybe expressions if you wouldn't miss them too much. If the file has a lot of useful expressions, you can go in the expressions window and find any custom-created expressions that might have been the culprit. Pitch wheel data should be fixed this way, but I've never had issues with pitch data.

Also check human playback settings under Edit>Preferences.

[Jim Williams]

...

[Jim Williams]

...

[ParLawGod]

I second clearing the MIDI data as a start.

One other thing you could try (I've heard of Finale 25 users having success with this): change the setting from "Play Finale through VST" to "Play Finale through MIDI" - then change it back again.

For clarification (I'm assuming yes), does this happen with all of your Finale files?

[the elephant]

I don't use anything other than General MIDI/SmartSynth and never use the pitch wheel. All my expressions are self-defined and very specific, so no pitch wheel alterations. I delete all expressions in a file's libraries once it has been completed, so the libraries only contain a few expressions each. This specific file has only three dynamics, one tempo, three miscellaneous expressions, and two articulations. (Doing this keeps the file nice and simple.

The files are fine, actually. They all line up very well with where my MTS is on my 186, and my drone pitch generator. The tuners all seem to be out of whack. I wonder whether there is some issue with the iPhone or iPad that causes this.

I will investigate further once I have some time.

Until then I HAVE THIS SORTED ADEQUATELY FOR NOW.

THANKS FOR THE RESPONSES.

[Mary Ann]

You have it sorted (how British of you to use that term!) but I have never even heard of the pitch wheel function. The referred forum thread was interesting and I'm glad I never felt like I had to "make" Finale do playback other than tell me I put the notes in that I wanted to. Granted its playback has always been pretty awful up to the last year's edition I used, which was 2005b. Remembering when I had the motivation to write stuff and put it in Finale, long ago. (You know threads never go away, right, Wade?)

[BopEuph]

To me, Finale was and always has been a notation program, but a poor DAW. I use it to engrave music for composers, or arrange my own stuff. If I want to make a digital recording, I do it in a DAW (now onto Reaper, which is amazing). Over the decades, I watched those Finale forums as the users wanted Finale to have more and more DAW functionality, to the point that, even on the current version that I'm on (2014.5...I'll probably move up in the world soon), bugs that have been around since at least 2002 have been ignored.

MakeMusic absolutely knows about the bugs, as I know I've reported them personally, as have many power users, but they never fixed them--or did the classic "new features," which were actually bug fixes. Things like, in certain conditions, the axis values are reversed, so going up actually registered as going down in the program, etc. But it was only power users finding these bugs, therefore it wasn't a priority for MM to fix them and instead add Garritan and Aria to the mix, or the "studio view," as well as many other features.

But, in the end, the playback functionality of Finale is still going to be inferior to a DAW, especially because Human Playback can only do so much, and you have to manually add so much to the performance of playback to make it sound amazing. If you're looking to make a decent digital performance, you're going to want to, at the very least, play each part in manually. The fact that we can't manually play perfectly quantized music is part of what makes a performance sound "human." I'm very, very good with Finale, and it would take far less time to create a good performance in Reaper, which I've only been using for about two years, than it would in Finale, which I have been using since the mid-90s.

All that to say, Finale is a great tool, and can certainly be used for playback functionality, but there's better programs for that. This pitch wheel thing is one of those features that, while it's cool that it's in the program (as any MIDI functionality should be), it's just something that doesn't seem especially useful in this program. To me, playback is just a way to help me find mistakes.

I definitely love the program as it put a roof over my head for a time.

[arpthark]

(2014.5...I'll probably move up in the world soon)

Fellow 2014.5 user!

I have been using Finale since I was in middle school in the early 2000s, because our band director made us download it to access weekly playing tests. Of course I started screwing around and wound up figuring out Bb/F instrument transposition, clefs, and all sorts of crap a middle school toobuh player isn't really expected to know. I've used it for over 20 years and it definitely has its problems, but I can bang out arrangements in no time flat, much quicker than by hand (usually). But the playback/performance stinks. It's always gratifying to hear real people play the stuff.

[the elephant]

I only want to play along with my piano parts; nothing fancy. I use General MIDI only with Human Playback set to Standard. The issue is that all my files show up as 10¢ flat to all my tuners. However, I play in tune with them perfectly (or not!) with my slides set where they are for work.

So the issue has to be with ALL of my tuners because I tested this against ALL of them and they ALL read that Finale (digitally tuned and controlled, so the computer is not a part of this issue) is giving them a signal that is 10¢ flat. (This includes a very accurate, vintage strobe tuner.)

I know for a fact that we play (are tuned) slightly sharp in the orchestra (okay, sometimes more than slightly) so I am never flat when in tune with the group. These tuners (the portable ones) all match up at work. They match up at home. I am in tune with them. My colleagues have used them at work, too. I also know that I play in tune with all my Finale files and always have because the pitch is digitally set and accurate.

Everything lines up with each other (tuba, orchestra, tuners, drone pitch generator, Finale playback pitch level) except for the fact that the tuners show the files being 10¢ flat.

I have never seen something like this. WHERE DOES THE FREAKING DISCREPANCY EXIST?

@[Rick Denney, care to weigh in on this? How can everything match looking from all directions except for one flaw where the tuner says the file is flat? The file matches the drone pitch to less than 5¢ if it is not dead on. The drone pitch shows in tune. The file shows 10¢ flat. I am in tune without beats at all with both the drone and the file. I am not lipping to make this work. AND THE FILES ARE DIGITALLY ACCURATE AS IS THE COMPUTER PLAYBACK.

The *only* difference in all of this from "how things used to be" and my current setup is cable length. I am using a set of old Bose computer speakers that have a longer set of cables than the old system. I know that cable length factors into SOME things, but certainly not a digitally generated MIDI file. Right?

This no longer matters as I have been happily practicing with my accompaniments since I posted this. I am now just VERY CURIOUS as to what is causing this one-sided discrepancy. It is interesting, and despite my trying to kill this thread it has obviously piqued some interest in others.

So let's try to figure this puzzle out.

And some back history:

I started with a super-early version of Encore on an IBM PC in 1986. It was TERRIBLE to use, and had TERRIBLE output. This was when I was one of my Army band's Music Librarians. Later, at UNT, I started learning to use the fairly new Finale (1.1) in 1989 on my roommate's Mac SE/30 computer. So I have been riding in this rodeo from very nearly the beginning. I used it for the rest of my years at UNT at the (at the time brand new) Music Computer Lab, which had 20 SE/30s running Finale and Encore and some other program (that was a contender back then but sort of disappeared within a couple of years). Sibelius had not yet been created at that time.

When I won my audition and moved to Jackson in 1993 I did not own a computer and could in no way afford one. This was my situation until early 1998. At that time I got a three-year-old PowerBook 5300c that had an old Finale install on the HDD. I think it was 2.5 but I never used it for whatever reason as it was not authorized. I think the PO may have had a bootleg set of install floppies but never had a code.

I called Finale to buy a fresh copy for $600 (which was a LOT more money in 1998 than the same $600 is today!), and the nice woman who answered the phone at Coda Music chatted with me for about half an hour. And for whatever reason, she decided to just *give* me a code. I think it was a placeholder code (like a temporary password) that you are supposed to update soon after you get stuff working, and yes, it worked. And I never was asked to change it — or to pay for it. (Security things were distressingly simple back then.)

My computer's PO's old copy of Finale was now authorized. I called back about six months later (mid-1998 — still pre-Internet in my house) because my PowerBook's HDD had taken a dump. I replaced it with a much bigger and faster one and maxed my RAM and also bought a 56K modem for one of the two PCMCIA slots. I was having fun on the WWW and the computer was much faster and happier. I also upgraded to Macintosh System Software (not yet called "Mac OS") 7.5.3 Rev 2, and at that time I had several brass quintet arrangements in pen-and-ink that I really wanted to engrave in Finale so that I could email them to some friends. I had the Finale authorization code, but I DID NOT HAVE ANY INSTALL FLOPPIES!

I called Coda and gave them my SN and they looked IP up. It was listed as a permanent number! Again, no $$$, and no questions. I told them about my HDD taking a dump on me and they sent me a set of three floppies, which were also the very last version that used a number: Finale 3.72. They switched to years in 1997, and this was 1998, but I got 3.72. Why? Because starting with 1997 they only used CD-ROM installers, and I did not own one. (Finale updates were free back in those days.) They were very sorry and told me to call them when I finally got a CD-ROM drive.

The next year I bought a used PowerBook Lombard, which had a nice CD drive. (Not DVD, which came later.) I called Finale and they promptly sent me a 1999 CD, but not version 2000, which was not free. (I think it was $50 or some such.)

Anyway, I ended up becoming an authorized user by accident and then retroactively receiving hard copies of the thick-as-a-brick manual and floppy set for free. MakeMusic took over a few years later and I have never liked them, nor felt compelled to give them any of my $$$ except for their bug-riddled updates and even more bug-riddled upgrades.

So I have used Finale since its first "dot one" update, and since 3.72 have never missed an update or upgrade. I still only know how to use Simple Entry as I do not own a keyboard. Go figure. HA!

[Casca Grossa]

I think you need Band in a Box instead.

[the elephant]

SmartMusic is what I want, but I am not sure how to get it. MakeMusic produces it, but I can't find it. Finale natively produces SM files, but do you play them back in Finale or is there a SM standalone player? Also, SM used to be called something else before MM bought it. (Vivace?) It follows you as you play, following your rubato and such, like a live accompanist. Now it seems to be a method to grade students' chair test tapes, so there are several file formats, and I can't figure out how to get it to accompany me without the solo file also playing, and I do not need an evaluation at the end, thank you very much MakeMusic.

I do not have the $$$ to drop on this specific need as I would only use it in this specific case for like another month or so, then it would become dust-covered and neglected. So I am just saving my accompaniments in tempo-specific files with a lot more attention paid to the Human Playback end of things and not to how the file looks on paper at all. (These will never be printed.) I save each "tempo version" as an AIFF file on my desktop, and access them through my phone, which is connected to the excellent Bose speakers I have.

I am doing this specifically to work out the new intonation tendencies of my horns since I did all the work to them. They are about the same, maybe a bit better, but *different*. I have not yet worked out these differences as I do this at work over some time during breaks with the section playing excerpts. (Yes, I can adjust as I go. I am working out slide locations and alternates to eliminate the need to make lots of adjustments on the fly.)

This limits the keys I can check and correct. Playing scales and etudes with drone pitches or a tuner or both at once is still not as good as actually playing against an accompaniment that covers all chords and voicings over many keys. It is easier and much more fun this way. So having files show up 10¢ flat when I am working specifically on intonation would be a bit of a problem for me, hence this thread.

[BopEuph]

First of all, just want to say I'm definitely not recommending you to get another program. My post was 100% opinion, and even with a very inexpensive program like Reaper, there's a helluva learning curve. That being said, this experience is an example of why using it for "professional" playback, like for backing tracks in a show, makes it a poor choice. As a practice tool, it definitely suffices, even if it's not the "best" choice.

But yes, I'm definitely invested in what the cause and/or solution is here. I've been with Finale since about 3.1, but started using it to pay my tuition as a copyist around '02. That's when I really got in deep with it.

Also a couple of things about note entry: first, you could find a dirt cheap MIDI controller if you wanted, BUT I think starting around 2012, some engravers got proficient in simple entry using the qwerty keyboard. I prefer the "old" simple entry (numpad and arrow keys) for monophonic lines, and MIDI controller for polyphonic or arpeggiated runs.

I didn't know SmartMusic is difficult to find now; you might call a band director buddy and see where they got theirs. Since SM is on a subscription model, they should still have the most recent information, if there is any.

And lastly: If you would like to try, I've created tracks to go with my long tone exercises for the purposes of tuning while running through the etudes. You're welcome to those tracks if it helps your investigation.

[BopEuph]

Oh, it turns out the name has changed to MakeMusic SmartCloud.

https://www.makemusic.com/music-catalog/

[the elephant]

I don't want a subscription service. I just need it for two weeks of daily use. There used to be a freestanding SM player, but it probably would not work on Apple silicon in a post-OSX environment.

Since for it to work you have to be mic-ed up I probably will pass on SM anyway. I *could* stop being lazy and just play the Finale files back IN FINALE with the solo line muted. Then I could use all the playback features and could more easily control tempo. I could even play with the solo line to really tweak tuning, but I think that would just be a time-waster.

I do not have the needed FEMALE Lightning to USB-C cord so am using a genuine homemade kludge. It should last the needed two weeks, and afterward, I can set it on fire and rejoice in never again having to use it.

I *do* like playing with the equal-tempered piano files, as it is very different from playing with people who tune things "correctly" as they play, heh, heh… I tend to lower those major 3rd and minor 7th out of habit, and you cannot do that with the piano, so this has been a (re-)education of sorts.

I remember when I played with a pianist all the time back in school. I have not played with a pianist in probably ten or twelve years now.

Wow, how novel…