rotary baritones

[Mary Ann]

Teach me.

[bloke]

Most are squirrelly, just like most tubas.

Most compensating euphoniums are just as squirrelly, but the buttery sound defines their squirrelliness as easier to overlook.

definitions of squirrelliness:

- Typically (many makes) there are tuning issues around the fifth partial (some form or fashion)
- Low range (if 5 valves) needs to be "learned".
- Often, really large mouthpieces are not the best choices.

Straight-belled name-brand kaiser-sized ones tend to sell for more.

[MN_TimTuba]

FB_IMG_1680626265226.jpg (32.16 KiB) Viewed 1443 times

Drive on up, you can play mine.
A couple years ago I bought this one used from Baltimore Brass. It's a no-name Chinese copy, very pretty red brass. Valves are very nice, intonation has it's quirks but it's easily manageable. In the normal 2 octave F to F or so range I like it, and the pedals really pop, but it gasses out from low E to pedal Bb, no useable false tones. People love it for church solos because it both looks and sounds very pretty. I also used it to play the 1st trumpet part in a euphonium trio on Bugler's Holiday with band accompaniment. The hard case is very good. It was cheap but it does what I need very well, so I'm quite happy with mine.
Tim

[bloke]

Tim's is a Miraphone knockoff.

When one of those is is encountered that has good valves and is otherwise put together okay, those sound a whole lot like what they replicate.

One of my section mates picked up a beat-up straight bell Miraphone a year or two ago at low cost, and I spent some time straightening it out nicely for him gratis, as I've felt sorry for him - since he had just run into a deer on the way back from a gig that only paid about $400 bucks. Those straight-bell Miraphones are remarkably tall. I'm thinking they might even be something like 32" tall or so.

Asking prices for used Miraphones mostly curved (like Tim's) vary wildly... and with some of them looking new in the box, and others being all beat up and red rotted.
They are about the most commonly encountered name brand ones, though. There are tons of No-Name Czech and Russian ones found on eBay for sale, and who knows about their tuning or valves...and/or whether they are high pitch, etc.

The golden fleece seems to be Alexander, though I sort of think that my old straight-bell Melton might have been a little bit better instrument than most of those, but Meinl-Weston (Melton) straight bell ones from the past are even more rarely seen than Alex.

[MN_TimTuba]

I will say that this is one of the last horns I'll part with, I do love playing hymns (with my own variations) right out of the hymnal and Disney themes for the grandkids, and it's handy enough to take about anywhere.
One thing, though - when I stand to perform I hold it like a steering wheel, right hand at the valves, left on outer bow at about 8 o'clock. I see others cradling theirs in the left arm, but that feels awkward to me and I often catch a spit valve with my forearm or sleeve. Maybe a shortie luggage strap would do the trick.
Tim

[bloke]

I never enjoyed standing up, holding, and playing mine, and additionally I installed some permanent hardware on the back for a stainless steel post to rest it on the chair seat - elevated to playing position.

Some will remember a gadget called a Stewart Stand, but this simply was permanent, and not Velcro.

[LeMark]

I like the way they play, but they don't have a tone that blends at all with English style euphoniums. In an ensemble setting, it's kind of all or nothing as far as the makeup of the section.

Tennessee Tech tuba ensemble made good use of them for years.

Like bloke I don't find them very easy to play, but I'm way too tall to place them in my lap

[donn]

My impression has been that they come in a variety of sizes - same length, different taper. The smallest - tenor horn, or baritone in England - might be a particularly good deal, because the demand is less and the intonation etc. is likely to be more tractable. On the other hand, some Bavarian oom-pah bands use oval euphoniums for the bass, and you likely wouldn't want a tenor horn if that was your ambition.

[Finetales]

They come in 3 basic sizes. Tenor horn (roughly equivalent to British baritone horn), baritone (roughly equivalent to American baritone horn, but better), and Kaiserbaritone (roughly equivalent to euphonium). The straight (normal rotary tuba shape, rather than oval-shaped) model Kaiser baritones are what people in the West often call a "real tenor tuba". (Euphoniums, Kaiser baritones, and bass saxhorns are all "real tenor tubas", but I digress.)

In my opinion all of the sizes have a lovely sound. Tenor horn is probably my favorite, plenty of zip and color but in a different way from British baritone. It's also what the Tenorhorn part in Mahler 7 was written for, so even if you don't play in a German or Balkan brass band you could still have a reason to get one if you felt like it. Baritone does the "something in between baritone and euphonium" idea better than American baritones in my opinion, and Kaiser baritones have a nice rotary tenor tuba sound, great for Strauss tenor tuba parts.

The big makers I know of are Cerveny, Miraphone, and Alexander. There are Chinese clones too (Thomann for example), as well as truckloads of vintage German and Eastern European examples on eBay. They are sold with anywhere from 3 to 5 valves.

[bloke]

They come in 3 basic sizes. Tenor horn (roughly equivalent to British baritone horn), baritone (roughly equivalent to American baritone horn, but better), and Kaiserbaritone (roughly equivalent to euphonium). The straight (normal rotary tuba shape, rather than oval-shaped) model Kaiser baritones are what people in the West often call a "real tenor tuba". (Euphoniums, Kaiser baritones, and bass saxhorns are all "real tenor tubas", but I digress.)

In my opinion all of the sizes have a lovely sound. Tenor horn is probably my favorite, plenty of zip and color but in a different way from British baritone. It's also what the Tenorhorn part in Mahler 7 was written for, so even if you don't play in a German or Balkan brass band you could still have a reason to get one if you felt like it. Baritone does the "something in between baritone and euphonium" idea better than American baritones in my opinion, and Kaiser baritones have a nice rotary tenor tuba sound, great for Strauss tenor tuba parts.

The big makers I know of are Cerveny, Miraphone, and Alexander. There are Chinese clones too (Thomann for example), as well as truckloads of vintage German and Eastern European examples on eBay. They are sold with anywhere from 3 to 5 valves.

Sadly, the last Melton version of kaiser baritone (that I found on the web - and on an old site page) looked to be compensating euphonium BODY with a rotary valveset pasted on to it.

When the craftsmanship of handmade kaiser (and smaller) rotary baritones is studied, they are usually ONE PIECE past the bell, and all the way around to the main slide.

[Mary Ann]

The one rotary I had on my many-instrument journey to the Sterling was, I think, a MW 49 or 43 or something like that; pretty old. Its intonation was completely unworkable (bugle out of tune with itself) and I didn't like the tone all that much. The only place I play it is on the tbone part in our recreational brass quintet that has been going on for a very long time. At least the Sterling is comfortable enough to hold, but I simply cannot play fast on pistons, and I leave stuff out. It doesn't sound much like a trombone, but the trumpets are playing cornets and everything being conical seems to work ok for what we do. I wouldn't want to trade the Sterling for something that was difficult to hold, even if it had rotors. I went through quite a few --- King 2280, four pistons I couldn't work well; that rotary whatever it was, a Conn front valve baritone (pistons AND ergonomically impossible) and finally the Sterling which has workable intonation, is easy enough to hold, but has the piston problem. I put lighter springs in it but that doesn't help when you miss the buttons entirely.

When I was in Phx picking up the Star, the guy had an old Sovereign (? 15" bell) that had lightning fast pistons, very light action, and I have no idea how he brought that together. With springs that light you'd think the return would be too slow. He is quite a good player.

[Bob Kolada]

How about a marching baritone with a stand? I don't especially like playing stuff like that (have a Stewart? trombone chest harness somewhere, bought it used without the stick) but lots of people don't seem to mind. My Olds marching trombone had pretty quick valves and most marching baritones don't seem to have much bigger valve bores. You're not going to play a lot or any low range stuff unless you add a rotary thumb valve; that'd be going down a completely different route.
A rotary bass trumpet will give you rotary valves but they stick further forward and are a pain to hold, I sold mine because of that.

[Snake Charmer]

The one rotary I had on my many-instrument journey to the Sterling was, I think, a MW 49 or 43 or something like that; pretty old. Its intonation was completely unworkable (bugle out of tune with itself)...

The oval horns were spared from development for some decades! Lot of them are still proper mid-19th century designs with modern valves, so they have a distinctive sound but sometimes play a bit ...hm.. strange. Since ca 25 years there are some upgraded designs for easier playability and more tuning consistency, but these are mostly the VERY expensive models.
Years ago I got a new student, a girl of 14 years playing on a chinese oval tenor horn for two years with class group teaching (the Yamaha band works). After the two years the class program ended and with her loving the instrument she came to me. First I gave her a bigger mouthpiece, which opened up the sound (her dad: if I hadn't seen I would say you play a different horn!) and gave her a rotary baritone from our village band. This was a Mirafone from the 1980s, which she played pretty well. Some months later her parents asked me to get her her own horn, since the band started ask for a fee for the Mirafone and I found a nice Besson Class A "Prototype" Saxhorn. After two weeks playing it she told me she tried again the Mirafone before she returned it. Her comment: "How can one play on such crap?" Her eyes went really big when I told her that her "new" horn was made in 1919! (and now, some ten years later she is still playing it happily!) Given the fact that the Class A models were developed in the 1890s they were much more refined than the rest of the register.

[Tubeast]

Oval tenor horns and baritones are a frequent subject of community band politics.
One group of people insists on their use, the other just hates them and want to replace them with euphs and euphs only.
The former tends to concentrate on traditional Bohemian-Moravian band culture, the latter will put more weight on modern concert band literature.

The oval horns provide a unique sound typical for that traditional Polka-Walzer-Marsch triangle, which is passionately revered around here.
The basic and cheap ones require very accomplished musicians to be played well: If an operator is unwilling or unable to do the work, they´ll sound like crap.
Word has it that more modern and very expensive ones (Melton´s MAW24TR “Alexander Wurz” signature model comes to mind) will make life easier.
Check out Alexander´s YT-entries to get an idea.

To my ears, they seem to work best when teaming up with more ROTARY “Bügelhörner”, that is other oval horns and rotary flugelhorns.
The folders of the GREAT professional bands are FLOODED with duos of that kind.
(Ernst Mosch´s Egerländer, Mistrinanka, Moravanka, Gloria…)

Using Euphs and Chuck-Mangione-style flugelhorns will NOT work the same way.
You don´t want to use two 6/4 York-copies on "Sinfonie Fantastique" either...

[bloke]

I know that I rant about this every time I think there's a way to shoehorn this topic into a thread, but I view compensating euphoniums and the deep-cup mouthpieces - that typically accompany them - as yet another part of American bands sounding more and more "mezzo" (as arguably, wind bands already contain far too many alto and tenor voice instruments in them - go ahead and list them in your head or on a piece of paper) and more and more bland. Another thing is the use of large bore trombones - designed for use in symphony orchestras, clarinet mouthpieces which offer a more and more covered type of sound - along with clarinets that do the same, and so on. About the only thing that I don't think is a negative type of influence towards this is the use of really large tubas, because those were originally designed to more imitate the sound of string bases when used in bands. Before there were a whole bunch of these available, sousaphones were used in concert bands to achieve the same sort of thing.

I believe I've also stated (more than twice, here) that when I'm subbing in an orchestra - where typically American players will use an F tuba, I will go ahead and use an F tuba, but when playing in my own orchestras, I've tended to go smaller when covering early 19th century works whereby the tuba covers pre-tuba parts. It sure is easier to use my compensating euphonium to play Symphony Fantastique, and I'm perfectly capable of playing really nice C naturals below the staff with that instrument - that make plenty of racket. Further, the "Dies Irae" melody is really not supposed to be blasted out - as if in a marching band; it is supposed to sound eerie and scary.
I guess what reminded me of this - and prompted me to type this paragraph - is that one compensating euphonium - with a player playing at a solo volume level and without an entire wind band covering up what they're playing - is going to be very easily heard, but three or four of them under-playing (so as to balance in a wind-band) might just get sucked up in the texture of the overall "mezzo-bland" American wind-band sound, because of the lack of highs in the resonance of compensating euphoniums. The shimmer - offered in the overall resonance of a symphony orchestra - is part of what makes that sound appealing and exciting, just as it does with a rock band, a jazz band, and other types of ensembles that immediately attract the attention of most people's ears.
I'm aware of the history of use of English euphoniums in American bands. They were first introduced by a very high profile United States Marine band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_W. ... =Lehman%20 , as - prior to that - the standard instrument in that band was a double bell American baritone/"euphonium". Of course, the American baritones don't really sound quite as pretty, but they do project more and offer more high frequency overtones (liveliness) in their sonority... and (as I seem to be wondering off topic, yes?) same is true with most of the European made rotary baritones.

[Finetales]

Sadly, the last Melton version of kaiser baritone (that I found on the web - and on an old site page) looked to be compensating euphonium BODY with a rotary valveset pasted on to it.

Yikes!

I guess what reminded me of this - and prompted me to type this paragraph - is that one compensating euphonium - with a player playing at a solo volume level and without an entire wind band covering up what they're playing - is going to be very easily heard, but three or four of them under-playing (so as to balance in a wind-band) might just get sucked up in the texture of the overall "mezzo-bland" American wind-band sound, because of the lack of highs in the resonance of compensating euphoniums.

In my opinion the biggest issue here is that there are 3 or 4 euphoniums. You really only need 2, and with that number they can play out with color.

[bloke]

@Finetales

Having too many instruments - and particularly too many mezzo-voice instruments - just exacerbates the problem of American wind band sonority, and what I'm trying to say is that I agree with you. A couple of tubas, one or two euphoniums, as few saxophones as possible, as few trombones and horns as possible, and perhaps with the trombonists playing small shank (.525" - .490") trombones - at least in the first and second parts, but not in the third and fourth parts, and and other strategies that follow this theme, would improve the resonance (to my ears) of amateur and student bands. Professional bands -and professional-level collegeamareur bands - where those occur - put enough energy through their instruments to overcome this tendency.
Too many tubas encourages tuba players to puff on their instruments - rather than play them, and it's difficult to hear a lead player on tuba who is three seats away: which are why I think two are plenty.

What I'm offering is that a lack of energy output - as an attempt to balance sonority - exacerbates the over-mezzo orchestration of American wind bands... compared to symphony orchestras whereby thirty or more bowed string players - who/which produce lots of high overtones - are all playing their hearts out to balance with the winds and the percussion.

[Mary Ann]

https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.com/p ... riton.aspx

https://www.baltimorebrasscompany.com/p ... riton.aspx

[MN_TimTuba]

You'll have a ball, Mary Ann!
Tim

[bloke]

Even though they're all 9 ft B flat instruments, I would call those "the F tubas of the baritone horn world", because you have to play them the way they need to be played.