Weird Impractical Stuff That Could Work

[tobysima`]

The contra I use at school had some issues today so I had to use a really small BBb tuba. Probably about a 14.5" bell, more or less the size of an F tuba. I was wondering,hypothetically, if I bought this tuba, could I have it cut down to F. It seems to want to play around there anyways, and an F tuba would be pretty nice to have!

[iiipopes]

The problem is with the ratio of cylindrical tubing to conical tubing in the instrument. Partial tones don't just "line up." Their relative pitch is affected by the degree of taper of the tubing of the bugle. For example, take a long piece of straight tubing and buzz into it and try to play overtones. You will find they are not in the Pythagorean-esque stagger of roughly a major chord as we expect out of brass instruments, at least the first six partials.

For two instruments that aren't that far apart in their general taper, for example BBb to CC or Eb to F tubas, it isn't such a big deal, and sometimes with judicious manipulation of the taper at the cut points or substituting a little bit of conical tubing for cylindrical tubing or vice versa, a good result can be obtained. Bob Rusk is, of course, the best known person who has done this, cutting BBb tubas to CC tubas in the generation before there were ample good CC tubas to choose from, with variable, but generally good results for the time.

But for something as wide in pitch as BBb to F, the math and the physics indicate that cutting may not be a good idea. There just isn't the proper taper quick enough to bring the upper partials down into line.

Don't confuse this with folks using Eb valve blocks and making them either longer for CC or shorter for F, as valve blocks are, of course, all cylindrical tubing, and rely on the bugle taper to get the partials in correct alignment.

[tobysima`]

The problem is with the ratio of cylindrical tubing to conical tubing in the instrument. Partial tones don't just "line up." Their relative pitch is affected by the degree of taper of the tubing of the bugle. For example, take a long piece of straight tubing and buzz into it and try to play overtones. You will find they are not in the Pythagorean-esque stagger of roughly a major chord as we expect out of brass instruments, at least the first six partials.

For two instruments that aren't that far apart in their general taper, for example BBb to CC or Eb to F tubas, it isn't such a big deal, and sometimes with judicious manipulation of the taper at the cut points or substituting a little bit of conical tubing for cylindrical tubing or vice versa, a good result can be obtained. Bob Rusk is, of course, the best known person who has done this, cutting BBb tubas to CC tubas in the generation before there were ample good CC tubas to choose from, with variable, but generally good results for the time.

But for something as wide in pitch as BBb to F, the math and the physics indicate that cutting may not be a good idea. There just isn't the proper taper quick enough to bring the upper partials down into line.

Don't confuse this with folks using Eb valve blocks and making them either longer for CC or shorter for F, as valve blocks are, of course, all cylindrical tubing, and rely on the bugle taper to get the partials in correct alignment.

That's fair. The poor horn's tessitura is just very high. I figured it could possibly work, but if it screws a lot of things up I may give up that idea.

[LargeTuba]

I think you would be hard pressed to find the 48 inches to cut required to put it F. If you did manage to do it the taper would be screwed up.

[tobysima`]

I think you would be hard pressed to find the 48 inches to cut required to put it F. If you did manage to do it the taper would be screwed up.

I know for a fact I can easily nab around 2.5 feet in cylindrical tubing. I may buy it and go logistics from there. I think it could pay off if I do it right.

[LargeTuba]

I think you would be hard pressed to find the 48 inches to cut required to put it F. If you did manage to do it the taper would be screwed up.

I know for a fact I can easily nab around 2.5 feet in cylindrical tubing. I may buy it and go logistics from there. I think it could pay off if I do it right.

I really would hate to see you ruin a functioning tuba. Ill trade you a decent Eb that you can cut much easier.

But Ive heard a lot of horror stories of Eb to f and that’s a lot less ambitious than your project. If it has a solid high range why screw it up.

[tobysima`]

I really would hate to see you ruin a functioning tuba. Ill trade you a decent Eb that you can cut much easier.

But Ive heard a lot of horror stories of Eb to f and that’s a lot less ambitious than your project. If it has a solid high range why screw it up.

I'm gonna be honest with you, that tuba hasn't been maintained well and is kinda a dog. I definitely can't pull any instrument stuff except cleaning off anyways. Was just an idea!

[Tubajug]

I really would hate to see you ruin a functioning tuba. Ill trade you a decent Eb that you can cut much easier.

But Ive heard a lot of horror stories of Eb to f and that’s a lot less ambitious than your project. If it has a solid high range why screw it up.

I'm gonna be honest with you, that tuba hasn't been maintained well and is kinda a dog. I definitely can't pull any instrument stuff except cleaning off anyways. Was just an idea!

Someone once said/wrote/posted: Cutting a bad tuba (a "dog" as you say) will never result in a good tuba. Cutting generally makes things worse (unless done well, to the right kind of tuba, with the right characteristics to start with, as other people have more articulately posted).

[tobysima`]

Someone once said/wrote/posted: Cutting a bad tuba (a "dog" as you say) will never result in a good tuba. Cutting generally makes things worse (unless done well, to the right kind of tuba, with the right characteristics to start with, as other people have more articulately posted).

I'm not to good at articulating things either. The tuba is unbranded, but has a gorgeous sound in the high register, isn't that bad in the low register, and it seems like it'd be a good bass tuba. I may use it for quintet stuff if I get a chance to own it.

[the elephant]

BBb tuba = 18' ±

F tuba = 12' ±

You would need to remove about six feet of tubing (which is 72 inches). This is one-third of the tuba's open bugle. The slide circuits would also each have to be shortened by roughly a third of their current length.

Not to mention that you need to be able to play a lot around low Bb and down to about low F in most marching music. This would sound thin and ratty on an F tuba on the field - guaranteed. And to even do this at all the horn would have to have five valves. Designing and building a workable (and reliable) 5th lever and linkage (which would, of necessity be to a rotary valve) is not an easy DIY project as it involves some silver soldering, which is NOT soft soldering. You have to design and build a lever support rack, a lever with a hinge tube, and a hinge rod that is removable, then you have to have a spring made. After that, you have to design and build a way to link the lever to the valve and have the valve actually rotate the correct direction from the correct position. (There are four positions in a rotary valve.)

[tobysima`]

BBb tuba = 18' ±

F tuba = 12' ±

You would need to remove about six feet of tubing (which is 72 inches). This is one-third of the tuba's open bugle. The slide circuits would also each have to be shortened by roughly a third of their current length.

Not to mention that you need to be able to play a lot around low Bb and down to about low F in most marching music. This would sound thin and ratty on an F tuba on the field - guaranteed.

It's thin and ratty down there to begin with - would shortening it make it worse?

[the elephant]

Yes, it would. And I edited my post as you were answering, so there is more there for you to read and consider.

Moving a horn up a whole step is a difficult project that almost always results in a ruined horn the first few tries. It is time-consuming and can be very expensive, too. You are not cutting out inches, but percentages of lengths. It is a lot more precise and varies from horn to horn due to the internal volume. There is no book for this. Certain things work well and most do not work at all.

Taking a horn with a craptacular low register and further hampering it will just make it worse.

After all, this, consider that you are hoping to move the horn up a perfect fifth, which is a reduction of the horn's length of ONE THIRD, and almost certainly guarantees you will absolutely destroy the intonation. It cannot get better in a cut. CANNOT. It can only stay the same or get much, much worse. Staying the same is what happens when you have destroyed several tubas first, and once you have the math down and know how to make your cuts you will be super lucky if it stays the same as it is now in response and intonation. This is true for moving the horn up a M2. Up a P5 is a disaster waiting to happen if the horn is already a mediocrity.

If you can get the horn for under $400 it might be a worthy project from which to learn, but I guarantee that you will not be happy with the results after having to play it for a while. Again, if you can get it SUPER CHEAP it would be worth it as a super cheap tuba can be written off as a loss. I would not do this to a horn like you describe even if it was free because the end result would not be worht the cost of parts and supplies nor worth my time. Perhaps it would be a good project with a different goal?

TBH - It sounds like you are seeking others to tell you to go for it rather than seeking advice that might contradict your wishes. Best of luck. I hope you do not ruin the tuba.

[tobysima`]

Yes, it would. And I edited my post as you were answering, so there is more there for you to read and consider.

Moving a horn up a whole step is a difficult project that almost always results in a ruined horn the first few tries. It is time-consuming and can be very expensive, too. You are not cutting out inches, but percentages of lengths. It is a lot more precise and varies from horn to horn due to the internal volume. There is no book for this. Certain things work well and most do not work at all.

Taking a horn with a craptacular low register and further hampering it will just make it worse.

After all, this, consider that you are hoping to move the horn up a perfect fifth, which is a reduction of the horn's length of ONE THIRD, and almost certainly guarantees you will absolutely destroy the intonation. It cannot get better in a cut. CANNOT. It can only stay the same or get much, much worse. Staying the same is what happens when you have destroyed several tubas first, and once you have the math down and know how to make your cuts you will be super lucky if it stays the same as it is now in response and intonation. This is true for moving the horn up a M2. Up a P5 is a disaster waiting to happen if the horn is already a mediocrity.

If you can get the horn for under $400 it might be a worthy project from which to learn, but I guarantee that you will not be happy with the results after having to play it for a while. Again, if you can get it SUPER CHEAP it would be worth it as a super cheap tuba can be written off as a loss. I would not do this to a horn like you describe even if it was free because the end result would not be worht the cost of parts and supplies nor worth my time. Perhaps it would be a good project with a different goal?

TBH - It sounds like you are seeking others to tell you to go for it rather than seeking advice that might contradict your wishes. Best of luck. I hope you do not ruin the tuba.

I'm open to being told don't do it - and I definitely won't. I have little knowledge of how to modify an instrument besides cleaning and polishing it. I was just wondering if it would be physically possible to actually do that to a tuba. I would like to have that horn for chamber music, though. It's decently clean throughout all the registers, and as far as I can tell it's in tune.

[the elephant]

I would like to have that horn for chamber music, though. It's decently clean throughout all the registers, and as far as I can tell it's in tune.

Then why would you want to hack it up?

The answer to your question is YES! You can do anything you want to spend the money and time doing, but the results will vary. Keep in mind that with your lack of experience it is pretty much a lock that the tuba will become junk.

1.) Start with a much better horn.
2.) Do much more reasonable stuff to it.
3.) As you purchase the expensive tools needed for this work, take on more advanced projects.
4.) Learn that you cannot take a crappy horn and make it better by making it into something else.
5.) Learn the old repairman's dictum: You can't polish a turd.
6.) Only do mods that are 100% reversible until you can scratch-build stuff from rod, bar, or sheet brass stock.

If you do these things you will get a much better idea whether you like this sort of work and have a knack for it. And you will destroy a lot fewer tubas and waste less money on tools and supplies.

Seriously, man: I wish you the best of luck.

Wade

[prairieboy1]

I would like to have that horn for chamber music, though. It's decently clean throughout all the registers, and as far as I can tell it's in tune.

Then why would you want to hack it up?

The answer to your question is YES! You can do anything you want to spend the money and time doing, but the results will vary. Keep in mind that with your lack of experience it is pretty much a lock that the tuba will become junk.

1.) Start with a much better horn.
2.) Do much more reasonable stuff to it.
3.) As you purchase the expensive tools needed for this work, take on more advanced projects.
4.) Learn that you cannot take a crappy horn and make it better by making it into something else.
5.) Learn the old repairman's dictum: You can't polish a turd.
6.) Only do mods that are 100% reversible until you can scratch-build stuff from rod, bar, or sheet brass stock.

If you do these things you will get a much better idea whether you like this sort of work and have a knack for it. And you will destroy a lot fewer tubas and waste less money on tools and supplies.


Seriously, man: I wish you the best of luck.

Wade

+1 This is advice that is as good as anyone is ever going get before beginning a project that would likely have a very bad ending if attempted. This is years and years of experience and skill talking!

[tobysima`]

I would like to have that horn for chamber music, though. It's decently clean throughout all the registers, and as far as I can tell it's in tune.

Then why would you want to hack it up?

The answer to your question is YES! You can do anything you want to spend the money and time doing, but the results will vary. Keep in mind that with your lack of experience it is pretty much a lock that the tuba will become junk.

1.) Start with a much better horn.
2.) Do much more reasonable stuff to it.
3.) As you purchase the expensive tools needed for this work, take on more advanced projects.
4.) Learn that you cannot take a crappy horn and make it better by making it into something else.
5.) Learn the old repairman's dictum: You can't polish a turd.
6.) Only do mods that are 100% reversible until you can scratch-build stuff from rod, bar, or sheet brass stock.

If you do these things you will get a much better idea whether you like this sort of work and have a knack for it. And you will destroy a lot fewer tubas and waste less money on tools and supplies.

Seriously, man: I wish you the best of luck.

Wade

Thank you! I may just try to fix the rotary valves - I'd only have to put those rubber bumper things on, then I can replace the cork thing on the spit valve. There could probably be other simple things I can do so I don't be foolish and break anything, as well. That should be a much better plan.

[the elephant]

… so I don't be foolish and break anything…

Not "foolish", just inexperienced. Do not swing hard in the other direction now and start telling yourself that you should not be intensely curious. Curiosity is a rare bird in today's youth. I would never wish to put that fire out in a person.

I ENCOURAGE you to tear stuff apart, but your best bet is to buy a trumpet or cornet for dirt cheap at a pawn shop. Breaking things is one of the ways you learn to not break things; you sort of have to do it. Just don't do it to a tuba because of the stupid-high cost of that experience. Use a trumpet or cornet. Also, there just are not that many tubas out there when you compare numbers with trumpets and cornets. You can butcher a trumpet and toss the whole horn into your parts box; eventually, you will use most of it up, and in the meantime, it is not expensive to hunt down a replacement "victim" to learn on. Tubas — not so much. Tubas make for expensive mistakes.

This one instrument will help you learn all the basics of brass work, and if you destroy it you can easily get another one. If you get a friend involved, make it be a *really good* trumpeter who can backstop you by testing your work and helping you to learn to play trumpet well enough to test it yourself. In return, teach them all the stuff you have learned.

Together you two could end up starting a small shop for fun and eventually for some money. The US has had a shortage of good band instrument repair techs for the last 25 or so years now; there is money to be made, fingertips to slice, wrists to burn, buffing rouge to wash out of your hair, nose, teeth, eyes, etc. HAHAHA!!!

The basic tools you need are cheap and easy to find. Once you get into real work, though, you will have to start spending some bucks for the specialized stuff, like a dent ball set, or slide pliers, dent hammers, and such. Just keep in mind that you can get a ton of work done with basic dent tools and a torch.

[tobysima`]

… so I don't be foolish and break anything…

Not "foolish", just inexperienced. Do not swing hard in the other direction now and start telling yourself that you should not be intensely curious. Curiosity is a rare bird in today's youth. I would never wish to put that fire out in a person.

I ENCOURAGE you to tear stuff apart, but your best bet is to buy a trumpet or cornet for dirt cheap at a pawn shop. Breaking things is one of the ways you learn to not break things; you sort of have to do it. Just don't do it to a tuba because of the stupid-high cost of that experience. Use a trumpet or cornet. Also, there just are not that many tubas out there when you compare numbers with trumpets and cornets. You can butcher a trumpet and toss the whole horn into your parts box; eventually, you will use most of it up, and in the meantime, it is not expensive to hunt down a replacement "victim" to learn on. Tubas — not so much. Tubas make for expensive mistakes.

This one instrument will help you learn all the basics of brass work, and if you destroy it you can easily get another one. If you get a friend involved, make it be a *really good* trumpeter who can backstop you by testing your work and helping you to learn to play trumpet well enough to test it yourself. In return, teach them all the stuff you have learned.

Together you two could end up starting a small shop for fun and eventually for some money. The US has had a shortage of good band instrument repair techs for the last 25 or so years now; there is money to be made, fingertips to slice, wrists to burn, buffing rouge to wash out of your hair, nose, teeth, eyes, etc. HAHAHA!!!

The basic tools you need are cheap and easy to find. Once you get into real work, though, you will have to start spending some bucks for the specialized stuff, like a dent ball set, or slide pliers, dent hammers, and such. Just keep in mind that you can get a ton of work done with basic dent tools and a torch.

I suppose there is a surplus of crappy trumpets in the world! I've seen many - a kid at my school has his trumpet taped together because it fell apart!

[the elephant]