Besson 15" bell satin silver Eb

[arpthark]

Dipping my toes back in the water with Eb after about seven years without owning one. Bought from someone who bought it from a forum member and only owned it a few weeks, I believe, so this may be familiar to some.

This is a 1974 Besson New Standard 15" bell, in satin silver with bright silver accents and bell interior. Original small British shank.

Initial impressions: it plays great! Intonation is excellent until you get to about C above the staff which sags about 10-20c flat. Those in the know: what is there to be done about the saggy eighth partial?

To be done: dent work on the bell and bows (if possible) and finding a case for this thing.

[bort2.0]

Very attractive tuba!

[Breavdah]

Pretty! And must be a good one if it doesn't start getting flat until above the staff. Better far than flatness starting G-F region.

The only other thing about these tubas is how loud they are. Unlike the BBb version which basically never overblows, the volume plateau where the horn is "filled up" but not pushed is a fairly aggressive tone. In a good way, usually, long as you know your own strength.

[arpthark]

Some more non-parking lot pics. The (uncomfortable, IMO) strap rings and bottom ball have been removed. You can see some of the dent issues I'd like addressed. This thing is surprisingly heavy; I think it weighs about 18 or 19 pounds.

[York-aholic]

Removed the strap rings?

How on earth are you going to march with it?

[2nd tenor]

The Besson New Standard is the same as a B&H Imperial but with cosmetic changes, I’ve played both for literally years and IMHO both are great instruments that were around - well proven design - for many years. Because they’re made of thick brass they weigh a bit but the small bell keeps the centre of gravity near to the player so they’re not really difficult to move. IMHO the later Sovereign is a slightly better instrument but I’d happily play a New Standard instead as my forever and old man instrument. Lucy you, enjoy.

I don’t think that you’ll find a case for one and most people use gig bags for them. Gig bags are handy but I much prefer the better protection of a case, even a shell case would likely be better and maybe a handy person could make a shell case for it.

The partial above the stave isn’t one that British Brass Band players use much, it might play better in tune using the first and third valve or the fourth valve rather than open. Obviously I don’t know what mouthpiece you’re using but IIRC they play surprisingly well with a smaller than typical cup, worth trying a Wick five or four in it, if you can.

Edit.

#Doesn’t Doc have - or did have - one of these?

# Comment was made about their sound volume limits. I don’t think that they’re as loud as a Sovereign can be, but you can certainly make yourself well heard - well I did - and IIRC a British Tuba player used one as The Tuba in a prestigious UK Orchestra … so certainly plenty of volume in the right hands.


Edit.

I’m not a Bass Clef player but here is the standard fingering for an EEb in Bass Clef: https://norlanbewley.com/bewleymusic/tu ... e-eb-tuba/
Here it is in Treble Clef form too: https://norlanbewley.com/bewleymusic/tu ... b-tuba-nc/

For me in treble clef the highest note I might ever be called upon to play is top C (Eb in Bass Clef), it’s an open note. The full step below top C (Bb in TC and Db in BC) can be played open too - though more by accident than intent. The full note above top C (D in TC and F in BC) can be played either open or with the 1st valve depressed. Of course all of those open notes have valve combinations that might work for the notes below them.

I’m guessing that the troublesome (BC) C above this stave is a Treble Clef A and that’s usually played with the first plus second valve. Thinking of the open harmonics up there maybe try one plus three and two by itself.

[kingrob76]

I suspect this will fit in the MTS 1204v case that is currently for sale (by me)... what are the dimensions?

[edfirth]

Would it fit into a Yamaha Eb case? If you don't know maybe Matt @ Dillon's or one of the other stores might know. I have one and would prefer a bag. Ed

[b.williams]

Would it fit into a Yamaha Eb case? If you don't know maybe Matt @ Dillon's or one of the other stores might know. I have one and would prefer a bag. Ed

It does fit in a Yamaha Eb case.

[marccromme]

I had the 3 valve compensated 15 inch Besson New Standard version, heavy and build like a tank. It played OK in tune with a small shank DW 3 and even better in tune with a DW 4 mouthpiece.

I loved the sound of it, used it for outdoor and marching music. The dipping intonation on some notes above the staff was easily corrected with alternate longer valve combinations.

Congrats on your horn, they are quite fun to play!

[The Big Ben]

I believe the proper term for the ball on the bottom is "emasculator". But don't quote me.

[Bob Kolada]

It's going to seem awkward (and probably is) but have you tried a fingering from the 7th or 9th partial? Cool little horn!

[2nd tenor]

It's going to seem awkward (and probably is) but have you tried a fingering from the 7th or 9th partial? Cool little horn!

Partial, there’s a term that’s always confused me and I’m not completely sure that everyone always uses the term in the same way. I’m figuring that the first partial is the lowest open note (peddle Eb in this case) and that it names the pitch of the instrument, the second is an octave above it, the fourth a further octave and the eighth a further octave again.

That would, I think, tie-in with my now edited comments (about valves used) several posts further back.

[marccromme]

Partial, there’s a term that’s always confused me and I’m not completely sure that everyone always uses the term in the same way. I’m figuring that the first partial is the lowest open note (peddle Eb in this case) and that it names the pitch of the instrument, the second is an octave above it, the fourth a further octave and the eighth a further octave again.

Yes. Spot on.

[hbcrandy]

I briefly owned that exact model Besson back in 2001. I got it from Baltimore Brass Company. I can't remember what I did not like about it but, I returned it. Eb tuba has always been my bass tuba along with the CC contrabass. That Besson was another stop on my hunt for the "Holy Grail".

[arpthark]

Thanks for all your comments. When I said "case," I really (confusingly, my bad) meant "soft case," as in "gig bag," so I will be shopping around a bit for that.

It's going to seem awkward (and probably is) but have you tried a fingering from the 7th or 9th partial? Cool little horn!

Yeah, that's what I am planning on experimenting with, as others have alluded to. Recently dealing with a sore throat so had to put a pause on the eefering for a few days.

I don't have Eb fingerings ingrained in my brain -- like I do for Bb, C, and F -- so it's slow going. Back around 2016-2018, I formerly owned an old, somewhat crappier New Standard that was dog-ugly, and I bought it for a song. I stripped the lacquer on it, gave it a "brushed brass" finish and later sold it. Then I had a big bell Schiller compensating Eb. I wanted the Schiller to be my "do-it-all" tuba, but I got impatient with my lack of facility on Eb and sold it after I moved to Connecticut.

Currently using the provided DW 3 and DW 5 that came with the tuba, but hunting around a bit for a used British Imperial blokepiece shank before I buy one from the bloke himself.

[Doc]

The Besson New Standard is the same as a B&H Imperial but with cosmetic changes, I’ve played both for literally years and IMHO both are great instruments that were around - well proven design - for many years. Because they’re made of thick brass they weigh a bit but the small bell keeps the centre of gravity near to the player so they’re not really difficult to move. IMHO the later Sovereign is a slightly better instrument but I’d happily play a New Standard instead as my forever and old man instrument. Lucy you, enjoy.

I don’t think that you’ll find a case for one and most people use gig bags for them. Gig bags are handy but I much prefer the better protection of a case, even a shell case would likely be better and maybe a handy person could make a shell case for it.

The partial above the stave isn’t one that British Brass Band players use much, it might play better in tune using the first and third valve or the fourth valve rather than open. Obviously I don’t know what mouthpiece you’re using but IIRC they play surprisingly well with a smaller than typical cup, worth trying a Wick five or four in it, if you can.

Edit.

#Doesn’t Doc have - or did have - one of these?

# Comment was made about their sound volume limits. I don’t think that they’re as loud as a Sovereign can be, but you can certainly make yourself well heard - well I did - and IIRC a British Tuba player used one as The Tuba in a prestigious UK Orchestra … so certainly plenty of volume in the right hands.


Edit.

I’m not a Bass Clef player but here is the standard fingering for an EEb in Bass Clef: https://norlanbewley.com/bewleymusic/tu ... e-eb-tuba/
Here it is in Treble Clef form too: https://norlanbewley.com/bewleymusic/tu ... b-tuba-nc/

For me in treble clef the highest note I might ever be called upon to play is top C (Eb in Bass Clef), it’s an open note. The full step below top C (Bb in TC and Db in BC) can be played open too - though more by accident than intent. The full note above top C (D in TC and F in BC) can be played either open or with the 1st valve depressed. Of course all of those open notes have valve combinations that might work for the notes below them.

I’m guessing that the troublesome (BC) C above this stave is a Treble Clef A and that’s usually played with the first plus second valve. Thinking of the open harmonics up there maybe try one plus three and two by itself.

I do have one, and I like it. My JP377 does play easier, but it is a different beast. The Imperial is not the biggest Eb hammer you can buy, but it has a wonderful clear sound and projects well. Definitely my favorite for the Eb voice in band - it’s not a faux BBb (like the 19” bell Eb); it has its own unique voice that is difficult from, but locks in with the BBb tubas. Lends itself well to solo stuff and gor times when Eb is performing some other function separate from the Bb basses.

Intonation starting above the bass clef staff requires alternate fingerings. My solution to that is getting a straight leadpipe (w/ standard receiver) from Mike Johnson in the UK. I should have the tuba with mods back by next week, so a review will be forthcoming. I did not do Mike’s famous 4th valve conversion - I’ll see how it plays first.

A Yamaha 15” bell comp Eb case should fit. Besson cases can be found, but you might have to get one from the UK.

The Denis Wick 3 it came with is narrower than I like, so I have been using a Sellmansberger Solo with a small shank. I tried @Tuba1153’s Imperial shank with the solo cup, and it was an improvement. I’ll try my Imperial w/ standard shank on it when I get the tuba back. I did like the clarity provided by the Solo cup, but we’ll see what works best.

[2nd tenor]

Thanks for all your comments. When I said "case," I really (confusingly, my bad) meant "soft case," as in "gig bag," so I will be shopping around a bit for that.

It's going to seem awkward (and probably is) but have you tried a fingering from the 7th or 9th partial? Cool little horn!

Yeah, that's what I am planning on experimenting with, as others have alluded to. Recently dealing with a sore throat so had to put a pause on the eefering for a few days.

I don't have Eb fingerings ingrained in my brain -- like I do for Bb, C, and F -- so it's slow going. Back around 2016-2018, I formerly owned an old, somewhat crappier New Standard that was dog-ugly, and I bought it for a song. I stripped the lacquer on it, gave it a "brushed brass" finish and later sold it. Then I had a big bell Schiller compensating Eb. I wanted the Schiller to be my "do-it-all" tuba, but I got impatient with my lack of facility on Eb and sold it after I moved to Connecticut.

Currently using the provided DW 3 and DW 5 that came with the tuba, but hunting around a bit for a used British Imperial blokepiece shank before I buy one from the bloke himself.

Mike Johnston has been mentioned, I have no connection but here’s his website: https://m-j-c.co.uk/index.html

Personal preferences vary but in my limited experience small bore instruments have less need for big cup mouthpieces. If you can borrow or buy one then a Wick 4 might be perfect for what you want.

I’m currently trying to improve my upper range on my Sovereign; to an extent it’s all about how the player uses - and learns to use - what he has. Shifting between mouthpiece sizes has helped me in the past and is helping me now. Normally I play a Wick 3 and my highest achievable note is an Eb, but with a slight smaller cup (Bach 25 copy) the F pops out much more easily. I’m working at keeping peddle note range the same and likewise tone quality. Low range and note quality seem to be helped by a slightly bigger cup and upper range by a slightly smaller cup - it’s all a series of compromises, experiments and learning exercises.

[Doc]

Thanks for all your comments. When I said "case," I really (confusingly, my bad) meant "soft case," as in "gig bag," so I will be shopping around a bit for that.

It's going to seem awkward (and probably is) but have you tried a fingering from the 7th or 9th partial? Cool little horn!

Yeah, that's what I am planning on experimenting with, as others have alluded to. Recently dealing with a sore throat so had to put a pause on the eefering for a few days.

I don't have Eb fingerings ingrained in my brain -- like I do for Bb, C, and F -- so it's slow going. Back around 2016-2018, I formerly owned an old, somewhat crappier New Standard that was dog-ugly, and I bought it for a song. I stripped the lacquer on it, gave it a "brushed brass" finish and later sold it. Then I had a big bell Schiller compensating Eb. I wanted the Schiller to be my "do-it-all" tuba, but I got impatient with my lack of facility on Eb and sold it after I moved to Connecticut.

Currently using the provided DW 3 and DW 5 that came with the tuba, but hunting around a bit for a used British Imperial blokepiece shank before I buy one from the bloke himself.

Mike Johnston has been mentioned, I have no connection but here’s his website: https://m-j-c.co.uk/index.html

Personal preferences vary but in my limited experience small bore instruments have less need for big cup mouthpieces. If you can borrow or buy one then a Wick 4 might be perfect for what you want.

I’m currently trying to improve my upper range on my Sovereign; to an extent it’s all about how the player uses - and learns to use - what he has. Shifting between mouthpiece sizes has helped me in the past and is helping me now. Normally I play a Wick 3 and my highest achievable note is an Eb, but with a slight smaller cup (Bach 25 copy) the F pops out much more easily. I’m working at keeping peddle note range the same and likewise tone quality. Low range and note quality seem to be helped by a slightly bigger cup and upper range by a slightly smaller cup - it’s all a series of compromises, experiments and learning exercises.

My issue with the DW3 is the width of the cup. I’d rather have a wider cup. Otherwise, the DW3 is a great match with the 15” Imperial.

[2nd tenor]

Mike Johnston has been mentioned, I have no connection but here’s his website: https://m-j-c.co.uk/index.html

Personal preferences vary but in my limited experience small bore instruments have less need for big cup mouthpieces. If you can borrow or buy one then a Wick 4 might be perfect for what you want.

I’m currently trying to improve my upper range on my Sovereign; to an extent it’s all about how the player uses - and learns to use - what he has. Shifting between mouthpiece sizes has helped me in the past and is helping me now. Normally I play a Wick 3 and my highest achievable note is an Eb, but with a slight smaller cup (Bach 25 copy) the F pops out much more easily. I’m working at keeping peddle note range the same and likewise tone quality. Low range and note quality seem to be helped by a slightly bigger cup and upper range by a slightly smaller cup - it’s all a series of compromises, experiments and learning exercises.

My issue with the DW3 is the width of the cup. I’d rather have a wider cup. Otherwise, the DW3 is a great match with the 15” Imperial.

Yes, agreed, a great match to the instrument. Of course personal preferences vary and what works well for one person isn’t necessarily as good for another. The OP has two sizes to pick from but I suspect that the one in between them (the DW4) might suit him best - worth a try and particularly so if it can be done easily. Early on in my return to Tuba I used a DW4L in a Sovereign, it worked fine for me if a bit stuffy through combinations using the fourth valve.

I was looking at the experience of marccrombe (several posts above) and of my own too when I suggested other sizes. Historically British Tubas - well from my experience of the older ones - were played with mouthpieces that today would be thought of as being undersized; those smaller cups worked just fine in the range then asked of the instrument. The Imperial that I played (lent to me by my Brass Band) was originally supplied to me with a Bass Trombone piece and it worked fine enough, it seemed to be pretty tolerant of mouthpiece size. Obviously I swapped things about over time and supplied what’s considered to be a more appropriate sized piece. What piece was it left with? I can’t be sure now, it’s quite a while since that instrument was in my hands and it’s in storage now, but I think that it was left with a DW5. My logic was that that was big enough to do the job and that using the smallest practical piece would help future players (who were most likely to come from outside of the Bass section) as they managed the challenge of and transition to the relatively massive mouthpieces that we use.