Unclanking WILLSON rotary machinery

[Tubeast]

Hello all WILLSON rotary tuba owners / repair persons,

Willson is using this strange / elaborate system of ball joints, where a headless set screw is used as socket for the ball of the joint.
Supposedly, the idea is to tighten that screw (using a 2mm Allen key) if the ball shows wear over time, with the aim to reduce clankiness.

OK. Time has elapsed, wear has occured, clankiness has increased to the point I want to do something about it.
Apparently, that system seems to have exactly TWO states of existence:
- clanky
- tightened to the point the ball movement is blocked

I´ve tried multiple times, including the use of a magnifying glass to observe tiniest movement of that screw (Allen key angle is misleading because it is very thin and will elastically twist under the loads applied).
No chance.

So how is this done?
This shouldn´t be designed to take forever until the RIGHT setting has occured by chance.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[the elephant]

Please post clear, well-lit, high res photos. A lot of us don't know this system, but good photos can help us to help you.

[bort2.0]

That was pretty much my experience as well.

It's a set screw that takes an Allen key, and you tighten it to the point where it holds it together with no slop, but not so tight that it restricts movement.

Problem is, the difference between "slop" and "doesn't move" is miniscule. I never quite got mine to the point where I was totally happy with it. My best solution was to pack the joint with grease, tighten it to the point of not moving, and then back it off the absolute smallest increments I could, until it moved well enough but wasn't clanky. Worse yet it didn't hold well in this position, so I was either going to use some loctite or have a repair person ever so gently squeeze the receiving end to grab the threads a little more.

My linkage was brand new (parts ordered from Willson after I bought the horn), and were machined as well as anything else. But I think it was all over-engineered, and presented a solution to a problem that didn't exist. If it held tight and was easy to adjust, it would been just fine. But over time I've come to realize that anything else I've had (Miraphone, B&S, Rudy, Alex....) was all just better than the cool looking and well intentioned Willson stuff.

[bort2.0]

FWIW I don't think it's really all that different in theory from regular ball and socket stuff, just for whatever reason, was really hard to deal with.

[bloke]

All metal adjustable links are problematic for the precise reason that you described. There's no leeway between silence and noise.

Vincent Bach eventually abandoned their adjustable system on trombone f attachment rotors. Their replacement system - given enough time - ends up making noise as well, because everything ends up wearing after a good bit of use.

Plastic on metal is the least problematic, but the attitude over the last couple of decades has been that using plastic is crappy and cheap, so people deal with metal-on-metal noise problems and adjustment problems. Miraphone DVS linkage was really good, but they didn't quite offer enough clearance in the space from the steel ball to the center of the stop arm, which prompted people to shave off part of the adjustment screw with a razor blade. Those things would last many years before they got too brittle. Later, they went to black plastic Minibal links (smaller, and easier to fit into a tight space), but that particular plastic was too brittle from the beginning. I know you're asking about Willson, but I think DVS was the best thing that Miraphone ever offered. The quietest and most problem-free links in the industry are the Dubro links with the little adjustment screw built into them, but again, most people view those as cheap and crappy, and not offering a professional appearance.

[arpthark]

The quietest and most problem-free links in the industry are the Dubro links with the little adjustment screw built into them, but again, most people view those as cheap and crappy, and not offering a professional appearance.

https://www.dubro.com/collections/ball- ... ball-links

These'uns?

[Sousaswag]

I might consider having somebody convert it to uniball links. If near Chicago, Dana Hofer's work is really good- I believe that he specializes in that conversion. The link on my 3200 F 5th valve, after service, was nice and quiet. Then it got sort of clanky. I get what you mean.

[bort2.0]

I might consider having somebody convert it to uniball links. If near Chicago, Dana Hofer's work is really good- I believe that he specializes in that conversion. The link on my 3200 F 5th valve, after service, was nice and quiet. Then it got sort of clanky. I get what you mean.

He's in Austria.

I honestly don't think the Willson linkage is ALL that different from the usual ball and socket stuff, but it seemed like there were more parts and more joints to it.

I actually really liked the 3B system on the B&S Neptune that I had, where the extra little springs were in place connecting the paddles to the rod (sorry, I'm bad with the terminology!). But even then, you've got to start thinking that it's going to break eventually, and then what?

My beloved Miraphone 188... had the white plastic that Joe mentioned. Silent and trouble-free. I replaced one, once... and had a handful of extras and the right tools in my bag for an on-the-spot replacement if ever needed.

This is the ONE place where I really prefer pistons to rotors...

[Sousaswag]

HA! Whoops! Greetings from IL

bort- I agree, I liked the 3B stuff on my MRP-C, and I believe it's the same stuff on my Tuono, nice and quiet, but relatively new.

re: the Willson- built so well, but linkage is over-engineered and finicky. Maybe packing it full of grease every so often will help mitigate some of the clankiness you're hearing? Pull it apart every few months to re-apply couldn't hurt, it's just annoying.

[bloke]

The quietest and most problem-free links in the industry are the Dubro links with the little adjustment screw built into them, but again, most people view those as cheap and crappy, and not offering a professional appearance.

https://www.dubro.com/collections/ball- ... ball-links

These'uns?

yup...Them thar...
I've had the same 12 on my F tuba for over THIRTY years (and with quite-firm neoprene bumpers)...no noise...ever.

[cjk]

The quietest and most problem-free links in the industry are the Dubro links with the little adjustment screw built into them, but again, most people view those as cheap and crappy, and not offering a professional appearance.

https://www.dubro.com/collections/ball- ... ball-links

These'uns?

yup...Them thar...
I've had the same 12 on my F tuba for over THIRTY years (and with quite-firm neoprene bumpers)...no noise...ever.

I agree with Bloke on the Dubro stuff. I have had that on three different horns, two of which I think I installed it myself. I never had to replace anything ever. It just didn't wear out. It's one of the few things in this world that's actually fast, cheap, AND good.

Contrary to Mr Bloke, I rather dislike the Miraphone white or grey nylon sockets with the nylon (?) screw in the end linkage.

There really wasn't anything wrong with the old S arm system, was there? Most of those systems had replaceable bushings, did they not?

[bloke]

There really wasn't anything wrong with the old S arm system, was there? Most of those systems had replaceable bushings, did they not?

Not "wrong", but - after a decade or two - the handmade universal [1] brass hinge tubes [2] thin brass washers [3] steel threaded/brazed hinge rods "T" joints wear, become rattly, and need to be (however someone does it, but I use the small side of my largest dent hammer, and the anvil portion off a vice) remove the L-R/U-D play from those mechanisms. The nylon bushings last just about as long, and require a bit of skill and odd procedures/routines to properly replace.

I'm thinking that the grey plastic DVS links (second generation) had more of a tendency to "blow apart", whereas the (white nylon) first generation offered remarkable longevity and durability. Mr. N. sent me a handful of samples off the current DVS replacements, and they appear to have returned to the original white nylon.

OK...sometimes the seam (on the interior, if/when replacements were/are needed) needed to be gently polished out with a little Dremel (etc.) spherical reamer, but that's just about it. ...so it was/is (imo) as good as Dubro, but looked/looks nicer.