old communist B&S C

[bloke]

These are cool, but (as the mouthpipe can't be cut without frankening the instrument) there's no (easy) way to enhance them with a 5th rotor without them ending looking wonky.

sure...the 1st valve could become the 5th valve, but then (dropping the entire valveset down two inches) what happens then?

In the past, we all decided that 4-valve C tubas were fine, but that's no longer the case.

Something special about them is that their bells are THE SAME BELLS as were used on the venerable B&S "Symphonie Modell" F tubas, so buying one of these, doing a bell-swap, and selling the leftover C tuba would be an amazing way to replace a trashed 45-year-old F tuba bell with a nice one (without using one of the new bells, which cost a fortune and don't sound as nice).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134564627093

[bort2.0]

ist Tubatasche

[DonO.]

Why is it that a four valve BBb is fine but a four valve version of the same thing in CC is not fine? Could one not deal with the intonation issues with slide pulling?

[arpthark]

Why is it that a four valve BBb is fine but a four valve version of the same thing in CC is not fine? Could one not deal with the intonation issues with slide pulling?

People may disagree, but I think the primary reason is that low F, which pops up pretty frequently in our music, is played either 124 (flat) or 14 (sharp) on a CC tuba, and must either be lipped up/slide pushed or slide pulled, depending on which combination you use. Compare that to using the fifth valve, which is tuned to a GG whole step (e.g., an in-tune F below low G).

I've owned both four and five valve CC tubas, and was never terribly inconvenienced by the lack of the fifth valve, but it certainly feels like something you have to "work around" as opposed to just playing automatically.

[arpthark]

ist Tubatasche

Das ist eine total Dellentasche

[dp]

their bells are THE SAME BELLS as were used on the venerable B&S "Symphonie Modell" F tubas, so buying one of these, doing a bell-swap, and selling the leftover C tuba would be an amazing way to replace a trashed 45-year-old F tuba bell with a nice one (without using one of the new bells, which cost a fortune and don't sound as nice).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134564627093

Paying 4250 to get a bell would be an amazing way to replace a trashed f tuba bell alright!

[bloke]

their bells are THE SAME BELLS as were used on the venerable B&S "Symphonie Modell" F tubas, so buying one of these, doing a bell-swap, and selling the leftover C tuba would be an amazing way to replace a trashed 45-year-old F tuba bell with a nice one (without using one of the new bells, which cost a fortune and don't sound as nice).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134564627093

Paying 4250 to get a bell would be an amazing way to replace a trashed f tuba bell alright!

It would, if one could manage to sell the trashed-but-usable bell - mounted on the C tuba body - for $3,000 or so, and end up with a really nice condition communist era bell like the one on the tuba in this ad.

[the elephant]

It's called horse trading, Dale. For some, it is the easiest way to get nicer things.

[bort2.0]

My sense of proportion is all mixed up with these pictures. The CC tuba must really be a pretty moderate size then. In the photo, the Bell seems pretty dang large to me. Or at least, not the size of an F tuba Bell.

I actually don't think Joe's idea is so bad, as long as you have the capital to support it in between dealings.

If that Bell were for sale for $1,500, it'll be a no-brainer. But the front 4500 now and get 1500 back later... Not something that everybody can do or wants to do

[bloke]

I suppose..."horse-trading" is defined as "shrewd bargaining"...and I'd certainly rather be a shrewd bargainer than the opposite.

Tons of people have bought bell-front 4-valve Kings and Conns, and later bought a trashed/worn-valves THREE-valve - SIMPLY TO GET THE THREE-VALVE'S UPRIGHT BELL - and then reBay'ed the worn-valves/recording-bell 3-valve "left-over" instrument.

It's a similar type of thing, except it doesn't require soldering.

Mounting a modern-era B&S bell or a Chinese B&S bell copy isn't going to result (for whatever reason) in having a vintage-sounding communist era F tuba AS WILL mounting a genuine communist-era bell (with kranz) on a communist-era B&S F tuba...

...so which is the more valuable/desired instument?
- a 4-valve communist Schneider B&S C with a really nice bell
- a 5- or 6-valve communist B&S F with a really nice bell
...I suppose it's up to a consumer to decide, yes?

Selling a "leftover parts" tuba isn't dubious in any way, as long as any worn parts are revealed and the overall product isn't (as some are wont to do, as we've all seen) over-represented.

Decades ago, I bought a very-little-playing-time B&S Symphonie F (crazy-low price on eBay), and did a 1-2-3-4 valveset swap-out on my 6-valve (when 1 and 2 were beginning to show a little bit of wear (and I didn't like the idea - as I still don't - of "rebuilding" rotors). I sold the "leftover" F tuba as "B&S F tuba with no dents and a whole lot of playing time". The person who bought it thanked me over-and-over (for literally years) for selling them such a wonderful tuba at such a low price. Realistically, the #1 and #2 rotors were only slightly worn. I'm just stupid-picky. ...With the Holton B-flat tuba I "built", I swapped out the (perfectly good, and only slightly worn - the nickel plating was absolutely intact on all of them) oem King pistons for (slightly oversize) MAW pistons. I wasn't really looking for MAW pistons, but was looking for "slightly oversize", so that fitting oversize pistons into my 20-year-old valveset would result in absolutely like-new-fitting pistons. Again...I'm picky. I don't like patches, and I do like absolutely-like-new fitting moving parts.

As far as "horse-trading" is concerned, I've ALSO bought houses for way below market, fixed them up while living in them, sold them at the top of the market, and moved on to safer/less-crime-ridden areas into fancier houses where were ALSO priced way below the market...actually: enough below market that I was able to - fairly quickly - rid myself of their mortgages.

[Tubajug]

I don't know if it was this one, or some other horn that popped up lately, but I seem to remember commenting about a big ol' kranz on the bell, and this one certainly has one! Very cool.

[Bob Kolada]

How long is the 3rd valve slide on these? iirc it used to be a thing on 4 valve horns to tune #4 flat and ride the 3rd valve slide in the low range.

[bloke]

The C Miraphone 186 #4 slide is not only long, but accessible and outward-tilting. At least with the old instruments, it was also usually quite well-aligned.

I always assumed that (particularly when the overwhelming majority were four-valve versions) was in order to be able to grab it for "low F" (1-4, as the #1 slide isn't long enough on those tubas to tune that pitch)...and that #4 slide could come into play for even lower (2nd partial) pitches as well.

[Rick Denney]

Personally, I think the instrument is well-priced for what it is. Any five-valve C with the playing qualities this one will have would be priced several thousand more.

But it will have to wait for a C-tuba buyer on a budget with a discerning eye. I'd rather have this instrument than a modern Chinese simulation that happens to have a fifth valve.

Mike Sanders played a four-valve Alexander in the San Antonio Symphony for 15 years, and if he was ever out of time, I couldn't detect it. I'll guarantee that this B&S has better intonation overall than his 163 did. This instrument isn't an Alex (though this one was designed by the same guy that designed the 163 and it follows the same pattern), but Mike's Alex sold for more than the price on this one and that was 30-odd years ago when dollars had much more value.

A local colleague owns a similar instrument, and it plays beautifully.

Four-valve C's are the ticket to really fine older instruments for C players who need something special despite limited funds. Ray Grim bought a four-valve 5/4 Rudi Meinl to play in large ensembles. That instrument is awesome, and his playing of it demonstrates that. The price on it was within his range only because it didn't have the fifth valve. It did not replace his five-valve 186, but when he needs a bigger orchestral instrument for bigger orchestral music, the Rudi was a game-changing value proposition. Yes, he has to manage the intonation by using some alternate fingerings and and some judicious slide pulls, but for the music he uses it for, this is not a problem.

Rick "will not sound tubby" Denney

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[Rick Denney]

The guy in Berlin has written about it.

The designer’s name was Andreas Crönlein. He was the master instrument maker who designed (at least) the 163 and 164, and based on the slightest ghost of data appears to have been the head of production at Alexander up until 1937 or so.

Hess, in Markneukirchen, was a major retailer and distributor, and in that year decided to make their own line of instruments. They set up a shop and hired Crönlein away from Alexander to run it. The story goes that he showed up with his catalog of designs.

After the war he found himself in the Soviet sector of occupied Germany. I can’t find out anything about him after that, but I’m sure others know more. It’s a story I’d like to see documented more fully, that’s for sure.

Of course, Hess’s shop became the center of East Germany’s state-owned enterprise, at one time known as Sachsen VEB (VEB means “the people’s enterprise” or similar). I’m not sure it was ever officially named that and I don’t think it was ever used as a brand for tubas. As consolidation continued, the name changed to B&S, who marketed instruments into the West under a large variety of internal brands (like Weltklang) and external house brands like Meister Gerhard Schneider, etc.

East Germany was desperate for hard Western currency, and sold high-labor products at pennies on the dollar because of that. (This was also true for cameras and optics.) They and Czecho were the China of their day—trading (essentially) forced labor for external currency. As soon as the need for the currency lapsed and the workers started getting grumpy, costs and prices went up, but during the Cold War, these were cheap and excellent.

For me, an instrument like this one is very close to an Alex 163 except it has much better intonation and is a smidge smaller.

The bell on B&S F tubas was revolutionary. Of course it’s the same bell—the Symphonie’s innovation was carrying the tapered bugle through the valves precisely so they could use a bell from a contrabass. Apparently, Crömlein didn’t bring the Alex F design into production at Hess—at that time the standard German F from that region was the Knoth. (Knoth was also rolled into Sachsen VEB.) Maybe Hess didn’t think they could compete. It was much later, in the 50’s, that the Symphonie design emerged. I don’t know if Crömlein was still there.

Rick “reconstructive speculation with a few facts thrown in” Denney

Edited to correct spelling of Crönlein

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[Rick Denney]

(Pic of Crönlein, at center, in Alexander’s workshop in 1935)

Here is one of Berliner Tuba’s posts that mentions it, with a few more breadcrumbs:

https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/2018/08/

Berliner Tuba’s blog is excellent, despite that he took me to task (without naming me) for replacing the crappy East German semi-ball-joint linkages with Dubro stuff. Probably deserved, but what I did was ten times more functional than what I removed (which were not pretty S-links).

Rick “he’d have a heart attack over my ‘repairs’ of the Giardinelli” Denney

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Thank you Rick for spreading the history here. Just would like to add some more info. The speculation is not necessary as the history is well documented:

Crönlein was what US americans would call the shop foreman at the company Alexander of Mainz from the 1920s to 1935. While at Alexander he helped refine and improve their earlier bass and contrabass tubas (among other brass instruments) and was responsible for training the workforce. Because of this, Crönlein kept detailed notebooks of all the brass instruments produced at Alexander at that time.
In 1934-34 the accordian maker Hess from Klingenthal in Sachsen decided to expand into brass instrument making. To help speed up the process, they hired Crönlein away from Alexander and he along with other colleagues, helped set up the Hess factory. Although Hess initially used many of Crönleins Alexander based designs, they quickly began to develop their own instruments. In addition the factory offered complete custom one offs to which several are still in use today. One of the unique traits of Hess is that they were one of the only pre war german factories that used seamless tubing, which is good to know when you are trying to identify an unsigned tuba...
After WW2 Crönlein travelled back and forth between East and West Germany and finally decided to remain in the East. While there he went to work as an instructor of brass instrument making. Several of my older colleagues actually met him as teenagers or worked with people who knew him directly and have all spoke quite well of him in terms of his teaching and his personal character. I believe that after he retired, he moved back to West Germany, but I am not sure about this.
The company Hess was appropriated by the East German government, or "enteignet" in 1948. The name VEB stands for Volkseigene Betrieb. The People's Owned Enterprise. The VEB label was applied to most if not all mass produced goods made between 1948-89. To give the former Hess factory an actual name, it was called Blech and Signal Instrumentfabrik, or B&S for short. This was around 1959-60+-
The Symphonie F-Tuba although introduced in 1962-63, was likely the product of many years of experimenting dating back to the late 1930s at Hess and several of these early prototypes have made their way into my shop.
The firm Knoth was a small but busy workshop that existed from the early 20th century until it was taken over by Knoth's nephew, Scherzer who later merged with B&S in the late 70s. This is where the famous piccolo trumpets originate from. Although Knoth made excellent tubas, they were be no means seen as a standard or leader in the field. In fact, at least in Germany, it wasn't clear if there even was a "market leader" of some sort. That came later with the Symphonie/Alexander 155s etc.
I have to be honest here, a number of you have said the CC and Symphonie F bells were identical. I have had both models here and as far as I can see, the CC is simply a cut down 101 BBb bell. I even tried to drop a Symphonie CC-bell onto a Symphonie bell form and it was way bigger. Perhaps there was a version of the CC built with F tuba parts, but I havent come across it yet. Next time one of you sees one, please post some pics and measurements here if you can.

Rick, I don't have a problem with you doing your own repair work and in fact I give free classes a couple times a year in Berlin to those who like to do their own maintenance. and repair. As to your Dubros, I extend you an invitation to my workshop. Feel free to bring your Symphonie and we can do a back to back comparison;)
Have a good weekend everyone,
The Berliner Tuba

The guy in Berlin has written about it.

The designer’s name was Andreas Crönlein. He was the master instrument maker who designed (at least) the 163 and 164, and based on the slightest ghost of data appears to have been the head of production at Alexander up until 1937 or so.

Hess, in Markneukirchen, was a major retailer and distributor, and in that year decided to make their own line of instruments. They set up a shop and hired Crönlein away from Alexander to run it. The story goes that he showed up with his catalog of designs.

After the war he found himself in the Soviet sector of occupied Germany. I can’t find out anything about him after that, but I’m sure others know more. It’s a story I’d like to see documented more fully, that’s for sure.

Of course, Hess’s shop became the center of East Germany’s state-owned enterprise, at one time known as Sachsen VEB (VEB means “the people’s enterprise” or similar). I’m not sure it was ever officially named that and I don’t think it was ever used as a brand for tubas. As consolidation continued, the name changed to B&S, who marketed instruments into the West under a large variety of internal brands (like Weltklang) and external house brands like Meister Gerhard Schneider, etc.

East Germany was desperate for hard Western currency, and sold high-labor products at pennies on the dollar because of that. (This was also true for cameras and optics.) They and Czecho were the China of their day—trading (essentially) forced labor for external currency. As soon as the need for the currency lapsed and the workers started getting grumpy, costs and prices went up, but during the Cold War, these were cheap and excellent.

For me, an instrument like this one is very close to an Alex 163 except it has much better intonation and is a smidge smaller.

The bell on B&S F tubas was revolutionary. Of course it’s the same bell—the Symphonie’s innovation was carrying the tapered bugle through the valves precisely so they could use a bell from a contrabass. Apparently, Crömlein didn’t bring the Alex F design into production at Hess—at that time the standard German F from that region was the Knoth. (Knoth was also rolled into Sachsen VEB.) Maybe Hess didn’t think they could compete. It was much later, in the 50’s, that the Symphonie design emerged. I don’t know if Crömlein was still there.

Rick “reconstructive speculation with a few facts thrown in” Denney

Edited to correct spelling of Crönlein

[bloke]

Those B-flat's and C's that Conn-Selmer imported (and had B&S to engrave "Meister Gerhard Schneider" on them) - those C instruments were smaller (considerably shorter) than the "Schneider" B-flats, and the bells (though possibly chopped off at the bottom 1/8" shorter, so 1/8" less insertion into an F tuba ferrule) were the same as Symphonie F tuba bells...as I've had them removed from the C tubas (when asked to do "better than a repair" on those bells), and compared them to an F bell which (though I never wanted to admit this in a public post, and which I'll never sell) I keep in my clothes closet as an emergency spare for myself. ...and it's just as easy to drop the C tuba bells into my instrument's bell...

There was another "wonky" (and TALL) C tuba that B&S made during that era (OTHER THAN the - yet a THIRD C instrument from that era which I've encountered a few times - "Symphonie" C, which was a 5-bores "piggy" thing, from which - I'm fairly sure - the PT-2 and PT-3 various things later emerged - in their various - later: larger - bell diameters and valve types - later: piston versions).

I've sold a couple of those TALL B&S C tubas (rotary) over the years, but I don't believe any of them were ever engraved "B&S". I actually even encountered a Jinbao knockoff of this same TALL B&S C instrument. (Someone offered it for sale to me..."No, thanks"...I believe it may have played quite below pitch...?? and I'm now remembering getting it "up to pitch" for its owner, but that the intonation of the TALL Chinese knockoff was "all over the place".)
I get confused regarding the various stencil/alternate names, but I'm thinking that those TALL B&S C tubas (those that I encountered that made it to the USA) had names on them such as "Musica" or "Sonora" or some such.
THOSE bells could WELL HAVE been the same as the tall B-flat bells, because THOSE C tubas were TALL.
One of those (TALL B&S-made C tubas that I sold) I recall was in a 6/4-size rectangular wooden case, and was fit it that case at a DIAGONAL...due to that C tuba's height.

...Going back to the Conn-Selmer 1970's-imported B&S-made "Schneider" tubas, WERE IT THAT the C tuba version's bell were a cut-down-shorter version of the B-flat version's bell, it would have NEVER fit in that instrument's bottom bow.

' sorry I don't have any ancient German manufacturers' names to add into my paragraphs, and nor do I know any manufacturers' histories, and that all I know about is that which I've encountered in the small part of the world where I've lived and done business...(and - having just re-read the last sentence - it's not meant as sarcasm.)

ok...
OF THE THREE very old B&S-made C tuba models (communist era) that I personally encountered...
- the Conn-Selmer imported "Schneider" thing
- the really TALL one
- the short little "piggy" one with a small bell and 5 bore sizes (which - I believe - later morphed into the PT-2 and PT-3 things)

...the "Schneider" (slightly diminutive 4/4 "regular-lookin' ") one was - hands-down - the best player of the three Communist-era rotary C tubas that I encountered.