more on: traditions (a topic that seems to trigger, and which many seem to detest)

[bloke]

I just saw a picture of some American friends at the Wiener Staatsoper (Vienna State Opera House) enjoying the Wagner Ring Cycle.
(Yes...I had to google the spelling of Staatsoper...I'm not that cosmopolitan.)

The lady appeared well-dressed, and the husband (whose idea it was to go) was wearing a casual blue shirt (yes, buttoned) no coat, and no tie.

It just seems to me that - when the peripherals of traditions are abandoned - the traditions themselves are eventually abandoned.

Probably 70% or more will react with "wear whatever you want", or even "no one needs to tell someone else how to dress for an event", and a couple might even post (below) to this effect...

...but playing the Ring - annually - isn't just about "the music" (as I attempted to explain in the British brass bands thread).
In fact, it's MOSTLY about things OTHER THAN the music.

In the USA, our orchestral/operatic/art-music "traditions" are more tenuous than those in Europe, because our traditions are only borrowed from theirs.
Here, these traditions are quickly fading, and abandoning the peripherals is helping to push them off the cliff...
(If I remember correctly, the Philadelphia Orchestra was only founded at the beginning of the 20th century, and I don't even know if the the musicians were paid...??)

...I'm posting this considering there is a considerable percentage of members here interested in preserving the existence of these ensembles and traditions, and even though (again) a large percentage pooh-pooh my views as well as my cause-effect observations.

[bort2.0]

Watch yer mouth what yer calling Moron Traditions...

I enjoy getting dressed up a bit when going to the orchestra/opera/musical/etc. I don't like seeing other people wearing "whatever" clothes, but I'd prefer to see full seats full of humans in clothes than empty seats surrounding well dressed people.

Unless the clothes humans are wearing shorts. In that case, y'all need to go back and try again.

[smitwil1]

I’ve been on both sides of that discussion at one time or another. Seems like the “dress up” for it argument hinges on tradition as you said, but also on the “special-ness” of the event. I think that going to a live concert event is a unique type of event. Think pop music—the mosh pit crowd looks more like the folks on stage than they do (…I’m assuming, here…) on a normal work day. So, is it so strange that orchestral concert goers traditionally dressed more like the players on stage? I would guess that the tradition of the players dressing in current concert attire may have been so that THEY dressed more like their patrons.

Alternatively and anecdotally, I see many historical photographs at Yellowstone and Grand Teton NPs of women cross country skiing, fishing, hiking, and horseback riding in long (…presumably woolen…) dress suits and men engaged in similar activities in suits and ties. I’ve never seen an argument in Field and Stream by elk hunters bemoaning the loss of the worsted wool suit, jodhpurs, and ties in favor of day-glow orange vests worn over woodland cammo. But then again, I only read F&S at the doctor’s office so I may be missing something.

Times change as do customs, wardrobes, fabrics, styles, etc… So long as we don’t lose the customs of attending and supporting the arts, how important is it what folks wear to the occasion?

Bill

[bloke]

Sportswear vs. formalwear...??
hmm...
A century ago, I'm sure those people would have gone head-over-heals for 3M™ Thinsulate™.
They wore what was available that kept them from freezing while doing winter sports.

Otherwise, formal-wear has always been unnecessary, but worn "because".

My Mom wore embarrassingly raggedy clothes to do housework (including carrying to portable clotheline from the one-car garage to the backyard), digging in the flowerbeds, and all that), but (yes "that many years ago") wore hats and white gloves to church, weddings, funerals, commencements, fancy restaurants (perhaps once ever couple of years), and concerts (perhaps once ever several years). I suspect my parents were pretty broke (baby blankets covering holes in furniture upholstery, etc.), but - when at "events", absolutely dressed for them.

rock concerts: The appropriate clothing for those has it's traditions as well. Were someone to show up in a "tux", everyone would assume it would be to "attempt to not conform, and to draw attention to oneself"...and that person would actually "win the game", as all of the other nonconformist clothing - well... - would conform.

[arpthark]

Hmm. Joe, I've been thinking about your previous comments on this over the past few days, because I am playing at a brass band festival this week. The band I am playing in used to wear red wool coats as a recreated "turn of the century American brass band," but since the 2000s had been wearing band-branded polo shirts.

This year, my first time playing with the group since 2016 or so, the attire is white top/black bottoms. Okay, fine.

Then the forecast of 90°F came about, and the decision was made to wear colorful tops and shorts/jeans on stage, doesn't matter the color or style. I kind of think that makes the group look like it's rehearsing outdoors instead of performing.

I think decorum/tradition definitely has its place, especially in special events like a brass band festival that only occurs once a year. We play to hundreds of people picnicking and socializing, not really there JUST for the music, but the music/spectacle is the unifying element.

[bort2.0]

I've come to really dislike polo shirts, not only because nobody actually plays polo in them, but because of the de facto uniform aspect of them...

Polo shirts make refrigerator repair people look more professional, and makes bands look more like refrigerator repair people.

"Better than t-shirts..."

Also better than short sleeve white dress shirts and black pants which I've had to do before. We all looked like 1960s NASA employees.

White linen pants were the worst though.

Also kind of understanding why so many bands just say "see you in the fall!"

[Rick Denney]

Guayabera shirts make the most sense for bands. Or tasteful Hawaiian shirts. Both with slacks.

I attended a Philharmonia concert at the Royal Festival Hall in London in 2008. It was an evening concert. The audience of 1908 would mostly have been “dressed,” meaning tails and top hats. A dinner jacket (“tux”) would have been “casual”.

I wore a suit, as did my friend who accompanied the Redhead and I. We were probably the only Americans in attendance that night. And we were in a nearly as small minority of suit-wearers. Certainly nobody was “dressed” as they would have been a century earlier.

Our band stopped wearing tuxes for performances last year. We wear “black” now.

Rick “not so easy to find black dress shirts these days” Denney

[bloke]

Hmm. Joe, I've been thinking about your previous comments on this over the past few days, because I am playing at a brass band festival this week. The band I am playing in used to wear red wool coats as a recreated "turn of the century American brass band," but since the 2000s had been wearing band-branded polo shirts.

This year, my first time playing with the group since 2016 or so, the attire is white top/black bottoms. Okay, fine.

Then the forecast of 90°F came about, and the decision was made to wear colorful tops and shorts/jeans on stage, doesn't matter the color or style. I kind of think that makes the group look like it's rehearsing outdoors instead of performing.

I think decorum/tradition definitely has its place, especially in special events like a brass band festival that only occurs once a year. We play to hundreds of people picnicking and socializing, not really there JUST for the music, but the music/spectacle is the unifying element.

*...and the technology exists to create "heavy-looking" clothing out of lightweight/breathable materials.

As far as tuxedos are concerned, I sort-of view those as for cocktail hour (white or black coat, depending on the hour), weddings (ie. grooms and groomsmen) and ACTUAL (on the four corners of a horse-driving carriage) groomsman. To me, morning or afternoon formal wear is black suit/long tie, and evening formal wear is tails. Lately, orchestras (unless a very special event) have been seen in black suits at night...OK then...
Pops concerts seem to be "all black", these days...and (sure) that seems acceptable, when there's a collar/sleeves, black dress shoes, etc.
_____________________________________________________________
*I'm not suggesting that anyone shun stainless steel mouthpieces, or anything like that, as plating (just as with heavy wool suits and tuning to the oboe...which can't do much about it's tuning - in c. 45° to 55° F. concert halls of old) is becoming obsolete.

[smitwil1]

I suppose my sportswear analogy was that (1) times change and fashions change, and (2) people wore what they had in the closet. If people feel like they need to dress up—possibly into clothes that they have no other use for—to go to a concert they may avail themselves of one of the many entertainment alternatives that exist today.

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[Three Valves]

I seek excuses to dress up.

Not excuses not to.

[bloke]

I seek excuses to dress up.

Not excuses not to.

Even the last time my daughter and her family showed up, I stopped working, got cleaned up, and put on some decent street clothes...
...She noticed the difference, acknowledged, and was pleased.

Events/ceremonies...again: cultural, and I think it's OK to acknowledge one's culture...and I don't view it as showing off by appearing to "be cultured".

LOL...The main problem with most formal wear is friggin' weight gain.

If many of us didn't overeat (raising my hand) our formal wear would be just as comfortable as other clothing.

[Three Valves]

Whiner; “I can’t wear a tie”

Me; “Because your shirt don’t fit”

[Mary Ann]

The discussion amongst the hierarchy in the brass band has been away from fancy uniforms, and the suggestion has been made that everyone wear matching tee shirts, jeans, and a black jacket. No one has yet mentioned white sneakers but I bet it's on the way.

[Three Valves]

[bort2.0]

Guayabera shirts make the most sense for bands. Or tasteful Hawaiian shirts. Both with slacks.

No offense, but uffda... no thanks. As I like to say, that's "my dad is in a band" kind of clothing. Unless I'm in Miami...?

[arpthark]

I like wearing “pit black” while playing.

I like “business casual” for attending.

I hate polo shirts of any kind.

What do you use while playing polo?? Must stick out like a sore thumb at the club.

[bloke]

Let's tell these folks that they need to move over to black jeans, "any-tartan-will do" (cotton) flannel shirts, and chukka boots.



One of my freeway-philharmonic music directors (when he took over, and that orchestra was so bad that I actually kept it a SECRET that I was working with them...and - I'm thinking - only a handful of us - from "back then" have not been dismissed) - the first year he took over - told the orchestra to sway with the music and emote, to make it appear as though they understood what they were going, to impress the audience VISUALLY (as he COMPLETELY understands that concerts are MOSTLY VISUAL spectacles) just as probably 65% of the judging in BARBECUE CONTESTS (whether anyone admits it or not) is PRESENTATION, and that actually moving with the phrases would (whether-or-not the musicians believed it) "rub off" and partially correct their (lack of) phrasing.

bloke "It just seems to me that American British-style brass bands have access (several websites) towards purchasing ENDLESS choices of sets of used band uniforms...and (considering that they would be repurposed by mature adults) particularly now that so many high school students are obese...and don't try to tell me that the used uniform - below - wouldn't LOOK LIKE A MILLION BUCKS next to a 1970's 17" bell satin silver (or shiny lacquer) Besson 3+1 compensating BB-flat tuba."

example of something that's currently being offered for sale:

[York-aholic]

LOL...The main problem with most formal wear is friggin' weight gain.

If many of us didn't overeat (raising my hand) our formal wear would be just as comfortable as other clothing.

That might be your issue.

Mine is that the dry cleaner seems to shrink my tux every time I take it in to be cleaned...

[bloke]

me too...