The best CONCERT tubas for bands - more strong opinions re: epic wastes of money

[bloke]

KING SOUSAPHONES

Indoors, they sound better than upright bell tubas - when played by high school bands - most of which play in multi-purpose auditoria which only rarely offer state-of-the-art acoustics (and whereby the operators are - even more rarely - state-of-the-art instrument operators).

King sousaphones sound like REALLY FINE 5/4 tubas, with the advantage of directional sound (in the situations previously described).

King sousaphones are the best in-tune of all makes, always have been, and are easier to play in tune than MANY models of "student" and "professional" "concert" tubas.

If dozens of bands wanted them, I'd wager that King would be willing to make 4-valve versions with move-able upper-return slides (though 90+% of school players would neither use those, nor the 4th valves).

JP sousaphones can be bought for half the price of King (and are better made than currently-made King sousaphones), but (and it will likely shock @YorkNumber3.0 to see me post this) the JP sousaphone intonation isn't quite as good as King intonation (even with all of King's quality downgrades and messing around with the design - over the past few decades).

School children (particularly not at the expense of people with no children, people with little money, and people with no interest in school bands) do not need "marching" and "concert" separate instruments, particularly since King sousaphones sound (in my view, and - yes - I'm quite opinionated) just about twice as good as most "student"-grade "concert" instruments...and they certainly do NOT need for their local taxpayers to be purchasing $9K- $15K "professional" concert instruments. (If band parents organizations choose to buy one, two or eight "concert" tubas (so-called "student" or so-called "professional") that's their bidness..but (likely) their set of concert whatever's probably won't sound as good - (again) additionally considering no real "shells" in the majority of high school auditoria - as a set of King sousaphones playing Holst, Grainger, Reed, Husa, Sousa, or any of those wretched formula "band pieces".

bloke "If someone says, 'Yeah...you might be right, but short-action Conns...' I'll probably ask that the thread be deleted."

[tofu]

Might Muni band has 6 matching king 1250 and 2350 Kings and they all have movable upper slides. I use the first one bought for the then City band in 1931 - an HN White with the original gold wash 24 in bell. It is an exceptional player. These horns (obviously all vintage pre WWII or just after) are in like new shape as they've only been used by adults for 3-5 parades a year for the last 80-90 years.

I could see them performing well for a HS band. For my freshman band in HS we used the schools 6 Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphones and they worked well.

[bloke]

Elkhart Conn designs are OK...
- The 4/4 size features a problematic 2nd-line C (flat), but otherwise, "good".
- The 6/4 size (old 38K and 40K - but most are only familiar with 20K "short-action") feature that tired old 6/4 flat 3rd partial (F/E) problem...oddly, not all of them, but MANY of them. (I played short-action sousaphones for skolersheeit dough...in kolij, I calculated that I was making $5/hr. to play those things - adjusted for inflation: $30/hr. - to honk on them...but I didn't particularly like them. Oh yeah...I'll gladly SELL them to band directors who view them as the cat's PJ's.)

Obviously, King sousaphone/tuba intonation isn't "perfect" (it's a tuba), but - well... - the fewest and least-severe intonation problems.

...REALLY GOOD-PLAYING sousaphones for school CONCERT (and marching, except that's where they gits all toe-up) bands !!!
Heck, trumpets are front-action, 3-valve, and play the friggin' melodies.

[jonesbrass]

We had a matched set of silver King sousas in the Army Band I was in. Nice horns . . . The only complaint I had were the valves. Never could get them to consistently operate without sticking. Valves like those kept me playing rotary tubas for decades!

[YorkNumber3.0]

I agree with bloke.

I actually have a bunch of experience with both the brass and fiberglass older King sousas. They play better than many (most?) concert tubas that people (I.e., “band directors”) fawn over and spend/waste huge amounts of tax dollars on every year after poo-pooing and tossing aside excellent vintage King sousas.

Sin of sins is when the Kings are dumpstered for new, shiny, much lesser instruments.

Note: I am not above dumpster diving.

[bloke]

We had a matched set of silver King sousas in the Army Band I was in. Nice horns . . . The only complaint I had were the valves. Never could get them to consistently operate without sticking. Valves like those kept me playing rotary tubas for decades!

I have no idea of your age (though "matched set" sorta ?? also implies - AT THAT TIME - "recently-bought"), but the H.N. White era King pistons (and even Seeburg Corporation ownership era ones) were exquisite.

Those now are grainy-looking, rough feeling, and the slide alignment is dubious.

I'm pretty sure that - these days - they're made so-as the pistons can (simply) be dropped into the casings, rather than "fit" into the casings.

[bloke]

I'm HOPING to stumble across a (c. 25 - 30 years old REAL FIBERGLASS and NOT crappy/thick/heavy resin) King fiberglass sousaphone (for MYSELF).

- aluminum branch ferrules
- (only) two brass acorn screws valveset mount
- NO threaded brass-fiberglass connection
- pebble finish
- (though I HATE the new-style main slides) "new style" (narrow main slide / low-profile neck)

The problem is that I'm a "bottom feeder", DON'T really "need" this (but WANT this), and am lying in wait for (or the southern version: "laying for" - as in "hiding in the shadows, waiting for some bastard to arrive home, to shoot 'em") some really good "deal" on one of these...

...Believe it or not, I did ACTUALLY pull about a DOZEN of these out of a school system's repair shop's dumpster - c. 15 years ago. None of them needed much work, and I slicked them all out and sold them. The SAME (idiotically wasteful) school system also tossed SEVERAL dozen standard Manhasset stands. I did some minor repairs, repainted them with new "satin" (not flat/not gloss) black paint, and sold them all to a professional orchestra...well...I kept ONE of them.

[matt g]

My middle school had bell front 2340s for most of the reasons you point out. Then in high school we had upright bell 2340s, and a pretty decent auditorium.

[Grumpikins]

I wholeheartedly agree on the wonderful sound of the old king (hnwhite) horns.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[jonesbrass]

We had a matched set of silver King sousas in the Army Band I was in. Nice horns . . . The only complaint I had were the valves. Never could get them to consistently operate without sticking. Valves like those kept me playing rotary tubas for decades!

I have no idea of your age (though "matched set" sorta ?? also implies - AT THAT TIME - "recently-bought"), but the H.N. White era King pistons (and even Seeburg Corporation ownership era ones) were exquisite.

Those now are grainy-looking, rough feeling, and the slide alignment is dubious.

I'm pretty sure that - these days - they're made so-as the pistons can (simply) be dropped into the casings, rather than "fit" into the casings.

Pretty sure they were made in the late 80s or very early 90s.

[bort2.0]

I still think that the idea of what is best depends upon other things happening within the band. I've always said that I think my ideal tuba choice is different depending on the strength of the bass trombone, the number of tubas (which for me has rarely been more than two), and the degree to which the band is top heavy or thick and meaty.

For example, military bands in the US often use 6/4 York style instruments (I think?), And to me, that works because every instrumentalist is playing at an incredibly high level and all the parts are being played as they are intended to be played. A strong trombone section, especially the bass trombone, allows for a bigger tuba that as Joe likes to point out, it's more like a string bass kind of effect.

I don't think the 6/4 sound works all that well without a strong trombone section to back it up.

When the trombones aren't strong, something like a 188 or 186 can really bring more definition and clarity, without quite going full laser unless you really want to. The only problem there, is that if it's one of those bands that's just big for the sake of big and loud all the time, you're going to be working your butt off back there just to make yourself heard, but by that point you're working and pushing so hard is it worth being heard like that?

So I think that's why I settled on very large rotary tubas, because I was playing with less than stellar instrumentation or bass trombone, but the group was large enough that as an only tuba, the amount of input needed to make the most output didn't always sound great, because it was pushed beyond the limits. The larger tubas are not louder, but can make a better sound when pushed at the same strength, that output has a better effect than pushing the 188 /186 much too hard.

I don't think that I've ever seen anybody play a sousaphone or recording bell tuba in a band. The only time I even remember that happening was once in college, we're on the day of a concert, one of the tuba players in the concert band (multiple tubas... Wasn't my ensemble) showed up at the call time dressed and ready to go, with a recording bell tuba that he had never once brought to a rehearsal before. I don't know why he did it, but the director said he couldn't use it. And upon learning that he didn't have another instrument to play, he was told to go take a seat in the audience. All of that was communicated in the most tactful four letter language you can imagine. As in, get that blank off of my stage, go sit the blank down, no way this is blanked up, etc.

Memories...

[Casca Grossa]

When I was an Air Force musician, the horn I played on the most, by far, was an old King sousaphone. We played several ceremonial/marching gigs a week. It was light and had superb intonation. I would agree with @bloke on this one.

[Tubeast]

I´ll root for Helikons rather than Sousaphones. Especially for a variant with small bell flare and wide throat.

- easier to carry on your way from locker room to stage (SLIGHTLY smaller risk of creased/folded bell flares)
- Most already come with 4th valve and stuff
- just as easy to carry around on a football field with center of gravity inside your body
- no "need" for extra sousaphone head gear / bonnets

[bloke]

I've shown countless players and band directors that - when sousaphone necks and tuning bits are installed properly and approach the players face from the players left, the sousaphone bell is completely out of the way of the player's head, and there's even room to wear a shako type of band hat, if desired. (Back in prehistoric times, we wore shakos when we marched with 22k sousaphones at Memphis State University.

The reason so many players hold their sousaphone bodies left to right across themselves - rather than front to back, is because they are resting the instrument on their neck vertebrae - which is a very bad thing to do. The reason they do that is because resting the sousaphone on that shoulder muscle that spans the clavicle (or whatever they're called must bone structure) hurts for about two or three days before it quits hurting, and people don't like to hurt. Sadly, they end up messing up their neck vertebrae for the rest of their lives.

As far as appearance is concerned (and marching band is about 99% appearance-oriented, in my opinion) it looks about a thousand percent better to hold a sousaphone front to back, as was the intention of the designers.

[arpthark]

I've shown countless players and band directors that - when sousaphone necks and tuning bits are installed properly and approach the players face from the players left, the sousaphone bell is completely out of the way of the player's head, and there's even room to wear a shako type of band hat, if desired. (Back in prehistoric times, we wore shakos when we marched with 22k sousaphones at Memphis State University.

The reason so many players hold their sousaphone bodies left to right across themselves - rather than front to back, is because they are resting the instrument on their neck vertebrae - which is a very bad thing to do. The reason they do that is because resting the sousaphone on that shoulder muscle that spans the clavicle (or whatever they're called must bone structure) hurts for about two or three days before it quits hurting, and people don't like to hurt. Sadly, they end up messing up their neck vertebrae for the rest of their lives.

As far as appearance is concerned (and marching band is about 99% appearance-oriented, in my opinion) it looks about a thousand percent better to hold a sousaphone front to back, as was the intention of the designers.

Wish somebody had told me all this in high school. I actually just found a bunch of old pictures of me holding the sousaphone as you describe. And yes, my neck still has issues 20 years later.

8th/9th grade...? Not as bad as I remember the angle being, but there are some I found where the circle of the sousa body is essentially flat against my torso. Conn 20K.

[jtm]

this conversation reminds me of the time that a band director came to me in a panic because the 4 bar B natural below the staff Didn't sound in tune in their marching band show that they paid thousands of $$$$ to have someone arrange.

I would be fired and blackballed here in Texas if I ever suggested my students play 3 valve instruments for Concert band.

[jtm]

this conversation reminds me of the time that a band director came to me in a panic because the 4 bar B natural below the staff Didn't sound in tune in their marching band show that they paid thousands of $$$$ to have someone arrange.

I would be fired and blackballed here in Texas if I ever suggested my students play 3 valve instruments for Concert band.

Someone who charges $$$$ for marching band arrangements should know that sousaphones only have three valves. Marching baritones, too, right? And it's a pretty good bet the mellows or marching French horns don't have easy slide pulling gizmos like the trumpets.

[Doc]

Yes, no argument there. But that example was to show that Texas directors are having an aneurysm about an out of tune note for marching band, they would lose their freaking minds having to deal with three valve instruments in concert band.

I Don't even like dealing with 3 valve instruments with beginning tubas , because the longer they play them, the more difficult it is to get them to use the 4th valve down the road. I make it clear with beginners that the only reason we use 1-2-3 for a B natural is because the school district is too cheap to provide the 4 valve instruments.

[bloke]

Give me a King sousaphone with a $200 (??) factory-added upper #1 slide, and I can play a nice low B-natural for you at fff with no "lipping".

Something else that has been (not cleverly) forgotten/ignored: THREE valve compensating systems, particularly for SCHOOL-owned instruments...and why not for school-owned sousaphones, and (since they play the best in tune of all sousaphones already) why not for KING sousaphones?

bloke "B-natural/'low' B-natural is a pitch that exists, so why pretend that it doesn't, and why not add an inexpensive feature (such as an upper #1 slide) to play that pitch nicely? 1-2-3 with #1 pulled out pretty far - potentially - is NOT AS SHARP as 2-4 with no adjustments. 2-4 ain't the be-all/end-all...
and 'Texas' - Who cares? I'm not interested they insist on expensive and four-valve instruments, UNLESS they are interested in buying them from me."

[LeMark]

I've been on the 3 valve compensating sousa kick for years, but I don't exactly see them as an option right now

would you show up to an important symphony gig with a 3 valve instrument? would you attempt to play Prokofiev 5 on a 3 valve BBb? If not, why not? High standards?

I was reminded at a community band concert recently why High school Euphoniums here are compensating. we played the persichetti symphony for band with a bunch of low C's below the staff. Glad the entire section had compensating 4 valve instruments, or I would have been telling anyone who didn't to lay out on those notes.