Non-tuba content: opinions on King 3B valve trombone?

[DonO.]

Valve trombones are controversial among trombonists in general, to say the least! I used to play an Olds valve bone in High School Jazz Band. I have a chance to pick up the above instrument at a good price. Thoughts? It would not be my primary instrument, but as doubler, maybe using it on a very occasional jazz band gig. Some of the big band charts have tuba parts, some don’t. This way instead of laying out or playing down an octave I could just play a trombone part. Plus I think it would be neat to have a “rarity”. You just don’t see them much, and it’s a King to match my tuba in the bargain! Again, thoughts? It’s in good shape but does not have the original case. Some kind of Gator thing instead.

[arpthark]

If you have the dough and want to mess around, I don't see why not. Live your best life.

[ParLawGod]

I used a valve trombone once in a pit. We were packed so tight there was no room for slide movements. If you have a use/purpose for one, go for it!

[DonO.]

You guys are such enablers!

[arpthark]

You guys are such enablers!

Since it's a King—something which might keep its value more than the latest clone-a-phone from China—and you're getting a good deal, if you do buy it and end up not using it as much as you thought you would, you can always sell it and break even or make a bit of money on it.

I gave lessons to a student who played one of these. He signed up for trombone lessons and showed up with a King valve trombone. Weird, but whatever. I don't think any of his problems could be ascribed to the horn!

[Grumpikins]

You need to make the decision as to what best suits your needs.

Seems to me, having a viable secondary option rather than sitting out is the better choice. You're adding value to the group that way.

On a side note, I think the marching trombone is a neat crossover instrument. Referring to the one that lookes like a marching baritone..... don't they call it the flugabone? ?? The people I've seen/heard playing them sound great.

Best of luck friend.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[matt g]

The 3B is a great bell profile for non-lead big band work. Also great for solo work. The 2B has a little more sizzle for lead work, iirc, but they are very similar.

I’d pick it up if it’s a good deal.

I wonder if the 3B with f-attachment bell section would mount on it? That would be super cool for playing 4th bone on some of the older charts prior to George Roberts reformatting the role of the fourth trombone chair.

[bloke]

As far as a valve trombone, I prefer the Fullerton Olds, but when it comes to wrapping them up in a compact design, I prefer the King (Flugabone). As far as a slide trombone is concerned, I'm sure that most trombonists would choose a King 3B over a Olds Recording.

As the Fullerton Olds valve section fits all of the "small shank" Olds bell sections, I've tried it with most all of them and prefer it on the bell section that > came with < the valve section over any of the other bell sections (Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording).

Am I remembering correctly that King made both a 3B and a 2B valve trombone?

[donn]

It would not be my primary instrument, but as doubler, maybe using it on a very occasional jazz band gig. Some of the big band charts have tuba parts, some don’t. This way instead of laying out or playing down an octave I could just play a trombone part.

Just don't expect a trombone. Disclaimer - I'm not a player, I messed around with one for a while but not really to any noteworthy effect. But what I've seen in trombone bulletin boards, is an endless parade of trombone players 1) wanting a bigger bore than these instruments ever have, and 2) complaining about pitch problems when played as if were a large bore trombone.

It should have been named something else. Anything else, as long as the name does not include the word "trombone." It's a fine instrument when you want a middle voice that isn't conical at all, and more like a trumpet than a trombone.

[bloke]

If the King valve trombone intonation is as good as the King flugabone intonation (as I've never played a King valve trombone next to a tuner), it's eyebrow raisingly good. The Olds is good as well. Their only real problems are the problem of playing any instrument with only three valves. The flugabone has the added advantage of a #3 slide ring.

I'm in the process of building a six valve 4 + 2 B-flat (regular bass trombone length and bore) bass trombone cimbasso thing. I don't view four or five valves as enough for something like that, and I might even put a main slide trigger on, if it shows me that it needs it.

[tofu]

[greenbean]

For valve trombone, you can't go wrong with a King.

[The Big Ben]

I've seen videos of big banda bands who use a number of valve trombones. I'm guessing because it's easier to turn a trumpet player to a "provider of trombone voice" than turn one into a slide trombone player.

I saw a video of one of James Brown's horn sections with a guy on a valve trombone. I saw another JB video with Fred Wesley playing a trombonium. Fred's style has a lot of glisses in it so I can't imagine he used it frequently.

[donn]

Conversely, it's probably easier for a trumpet player to adapt to the voice change, than for a trombone player to adapt to valves. There's a real difference in how one approaches the instrument, to get an expressive voice with good pitch.

[Tim Jackson]

I had a very nice 3B some years back. The horn had a slide section as well as a valve section. A really nice instrument. The 3B valve set-up and most other valve trombones always feel stuffy to me. The 3B felt much better with the slide section. Although the marching brass king baritone may seem like a bastard instrument to some, I like the feel much better than the valve trombone. It is conical so more mellow than the valve bone.
Using the valve trombone may be a polite way to slip into the bone section, but maybe you could consider learning the slide trombone. So much fun!
I like the marching brass for the ease of using mutes - especially the plunger. For euphonium and baritone players, the marching brass models look more like a trumpet - a more traditional look when used in jazz settings.

TJ

[matt g]

Rob McConnell made fantastic use of the valve bone. I think he played a Conn?

[bloke]

yeah...
It should go without saying that a small-bore tuba/trombone/whatever has to be played/"fed" differently than a large-bore anything...and small-bore B-flat trombones (in the USA) are used more often to play various styles of jazz (though I believe that they would function QUITE well playing MANY symphonic "1st trombone" parts...whereas - after the early/mid "romantic" era - the "E-flat alto trombone thing seems to have mostly been set aside, much as the "bass tuba" seems to have been mostly set aside, in favor of the "tuba" (understood, usually, as "contrabass tuba").

I've linked tracks from this "cd" here more than once before.
(Do we still call them "cd's" ?...Maybe, we're back to calling them "albums", again...??)

I think it would be an interesting exercise for others to identify what TYPE of "trombone instrument" is being played on each of these three tracks:


What type of trombone-sounding instrument - big solo during bridge c. 2:40, and (just for fun) guess the player's "main" instrument) ?



What type of trombone-sounding instrument - big solo at 2:23, and (just for fun) guess the player's "main" instrument) ?



What type of trombone-sounding instrument - melody (under obbligato clarinet trio) at 1:33, and also prominent in the coda, and (just for fun) guess the player's "main" instrument) ?




ANSWERS: (Why not allow others to guess, rather than commenting on the answers, after translating?)
1/ นักเล่นแซ็กโซโฟนเล่นเบสทรัมเป็ต
2/ นักเล่นแซ็กโซโฟนเล่นทรอมโบนซึ่งเป็นหัวข้อหลักของกระทู้นี้
3/ ผู้เล่นทูบาเล่นทรอมโบนเป็นส่วนใหญ่โดยมีวาล์ว แต่มีเสียงพากย์โดยถอดส่วนวาล์วออกและสไลด์เล่นที่เชื่อมต่อกับส่วนกระดิ่ง

[2nd tenor]

The 3B is a great bell profile for non-lead big band work. Also great for solo work. The 2B has a little more sizzle for lead work, iirc, but they are very similar.

I’d pick it up if it’s a good deal.

I wonder if the 3B with f-attachment bell section would mount on it? That would be super cool for playing 4th bone on some of the older charts prior to George Roberts reformatting the role of the fourth trombone chair.

Just an observation. Three valve instruments tend to play sharp when the valves are used in combination. Trombones are thought to have seven slide positions that sort of mirror valve combinations but in reality even a simple straight Trombone (Bb only) has many more - well it does if you want to play in tune. Adding a trigger or F section ups the number of slide position variations again to get the instrument to play in tune.

There are pros and cons but IMHO having a trigger section on your slide trombone is very valuable, it gives a lot of helpful playing options. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d say that adding an f section to a three valve trombone isn’t going to produce an instrument that plays in tune, the pipe work lengths are fixed and not incorrect for some pitches / valve combinations.

[arpthark]

The 3B is a great bell profile for non-lead big band work. Also great for solo work. The 2B has a little more sizzle for lead work, iirc, but they are very similar.

I’d pick it up if it’s a good deal.

I wonder if the 3B with f-attachment bell section would mount on it? That would be super cool for playing 4th bone on some of the older charts prior to George Roberts reformatting the role of the fourth trombone chair.

Just an observation. Three valve instruments tend to play sharp when the valves are used in combination. Trombones are thought to have seven slide positions that sort of mirror valve combinations but in reality even a simple straight Trombone (Bb only) has many more - well it does if you want to play in tune. Adding a trigger or F section ups the number of slide position variations again to get the instrument to play in tune.

There are pros and cons but IMHO having a trigger section on your slide trombone is very valuable, it gives a lot of helpful playing options. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d say that adding an f section to a three valve trombone isn’t going to produce an instrument that plays in tune, the pipe work lengths are fixed and not incorrect for some pitches / valve combinations.

While you're right, it would be no different than a 4 valve non-compensating instrument, where the F attachment acts like a fourth valve.

[matt g]

While you're right, it would be no different than a 4 valve non-compensating instrument, where the F attachment acts like a fourth valve.

Yup. With an F attachment and maybe a slide kicker for 1st or 3rd, you’ll probably be kinda close.