Non-tuba content: opinions on King 3B valve trombone?

[donn]

It would be an inexpensive way to learn why valve trombone doesn't need a 4th valve.

[bone-a-phone]

Yeah, most trombone players aren't big on valve bones. As valve bones go, though, the 3B isn't bad. You can use the bell with a slide, which is one advantage. If you're using valve bone for space requirements, the Olds compact marching valve trombone is a better option, although the sound isn't big. A trombonium might be a better choice, and the Conn 90g large bore trombonium is probably the best. Compact, familiar blow, 88h bell, better sound and intonation, etc. But it's rare. Also, for space consideration, I have a Yamaha 350C, which is a slide trombone in C, but with a normally engaged Bb valve. So it only has 6 positions, and it's the length of a C trombone, but it plays in Bb. Mine is actually for sale if you want one.

There's always the Holton Superbone, or equivalent from Schagerl, but they are rare and expensive. I think Wessex has something with valves and a slide, but there's usually a wait for those.

I think Schagerl also has range of bass Fiscorns or bass Flugels or bass trumpets like the thing that Leonhard Paul plays, maybe the Wunderhorn: https://schagerl.com/meisterinstrumente ... orizontal/

[bloke]

Most of the Holton Superbones are worn out or beat up, and weren't built that well to begin with. Yes, you can play sequential sounding licks that go up and down in various keys by using the slide with the valves, but anything that's not in first position is going to be out of tune, obviously.

I guess I sort of agree that a 3B is small enough to play lead in a big band though a 2B would cut through all of the noise that modern big bands generate more easily. I sort of think a 3B is an ideal trombone for a jazz quartet or quintet (as those things sound so pretty) but honestly I also think that symphonic principal trombonists should look more often at this model, perhaps even before looking at the .525" bore models which they occasionally consider. The Ravel piece, "Bolero" might come up once every several years - depending on the music director, but I've heard so many people work so hard to play that on a .547" bore trombone - when it would sound so sweet and effortless with a 3B. If I'm getting into the topic of "Bolero", I think the other problem that symphonic trombonists have with it is that they think that they must legato tongue every note, because they can't get away from their classical training, which isn't particularly suited for this excerpt.

[2nd tenor]

The 3B is a great bell profile for non-lead big band work. Also great for solo work. The 2B has a little more sizzle for lead work, iirc, but they are very similar.

I’d pick it up if it’s a good deal.

I wonder if the 3B with f-attachment bell section would mount on it? That would be super cool for playing 4th bone on some of the older charts prior to George Roberts reformatting the role of the fourth trombone chair.

Just an observation. Three valve instruments tend to play sharp when the valves are used in combination. Trombones are thought to have seven slide positions that sort of mirror valve combinations but in reality even a simple straight Trombone (Bb only) has many more - well it does if you want to play in tune. Adding a trigger or F section ups the number of slide position variations again to get the instrument to play in tune.

There are pros and cons but IMHO having a trigger section on your slide trombone is very valuable, it gives a lot of helpful playing options. Maybe I’m wrong but I’d say that adding an f section to a three valve trombone isn’t going to produce an instrument that plays in tune, the pipe work lengths are fixed and not incorrect for some pitches / valve combinations.

While you're right, it would be no different than a 4 valve non-compensating instrument, where the F attachment acts like a fourth valve.

Yes, pretty much the same with all the pluses and minuses that that involves. Of course there are differences between valve and slide playing, a Trombone player might well use the f section to avoid some rapid and/or difficult slide movements. A Tenor Trombone - which arguably is what the King 3b is - uses the f section to ease slide use and not for extended low range pitch notes, well that’s my experience.

On a Bass I can get away with some slightly out of tune notes but less so on the higher pitched instruments of which the Trombone is one. On a Tuba it’s not that unusual for a player to pull slides whilst playing and the weight of the instrument isn’t supported by the player, balance is but weight barely if at all.

My experience of the Trombone is that they are awkward to hold and end up feeling heavy, you support all of their weight. Pulling valve slides as you play isn’t really an option though, like on some Cornets, using a slide trigger on some valves might be an option on some special instruments.

[bone-a-phone]

Most of the Holton Superbones are worn out or beat up, and weren't built that well to begin with. Yes, you can play sequential sounding licks that go up and down in various keys by using the slide with the valves, but anything that's not in first position is going to be out of tune, obviously.

I guess I sort of agree that a 3B is small enough to play lead in a big band though a 2B would cut through all of the noise that modern big bands generate more easily. I sort of think a 3B is an ideal trombone for a jazz quartet or quintet (as those things sound so pretty) but honestly I also think that symphonic principal trombonists should look more often at this model, perhaps even before looking at the .525" bore models which they occasionally consider. The Ravel piece, "Bolero" might come up once every several years - depending on the music director, but I've heard so many people work so hard to play that on a .547" bore trombone - when it would sound so sweet and effortless with a 3B. If I'm getting into the topic of "Bolero", I think the other problem that symphonic trombonists have with it is that they think that they must legato tongue every note, because they can't get away from their classical training, which isn't particularly suited for this excerpt.

The beauty of a slide is that nothing has to be out of tune. Built in compensating system. Learning a slide with a single valve doubles the positions. Learning a double valve bass quadruples the positions. A 3 valve superbone would be a lot of compensation options if you used the slide and valves together. But James Morrison does it pretty well.



I recently picked up a 3bf for use with our brass quintet. My other horns were burying the french horn, but the brighter 3b will never bury the trumpets, so it blends a lot better with the entire group.

The thing with Bolero on a big instrument is that you have to be able to generate enough volume for the hall and group you're playing with without edging out. If you can play the smaller horn without edge, then yeah, I'd go smaller. This is why I like the 8/88h so much. They mix the characteristics of large and small horns so well. You can get a big sound with a lightness you don't get from say a 42b.

Back to the 3b, though, it took me a couple of weeks to get used to it. It's a much brighter sound than my other horns, even my other small horns, and I had to stop trying to make it sound like everything else.

[Finetales]

Once again, I have the opportunity to post this great video (Facebook, so you gotta have one) of the Royal Concertgebouw trombone section playing Falstaff on 3 King valve trombones (and cimbasso). One day I'd like to own a set of 3 matched valve trombones and a cimbasso so I can outfit a whole section for Italian opera rep.

The King valve trombones play and sound great. I use my King flugabone a whole lot, but I wouldn't say no to a 3B valve bone. I used one to cover Juan Tizol big band parts in college. Though Tizol played a valve trombone in C, like the ones banda players use. (Those are great fun to play, and sound strikingly different to the Bbs.)

[bloke]

yup...
Valve trombones aren't just "substitutes for people who possess poor slide technique" (me: guilty as charged) but are real (and not just "jazz") instruments, and sound glorious - when played by gloriously-fine players.

Even the Couesnon (which - by that time had devolved mostly to a "budget" maker of instruments) valve trombone that was University-owned, and which I used (during matriculation) to play at jazz quartet/quintet/sextet gigs played/sounded P.D.G.

There's nothing to prevent someone from adding #1 and #3 slide triggers to a valve trombone (or Flugabone, which already features a #3 slide ring).

[iiipopes]

This sounds like a good instrument for Mexican Banda music, which is prone to using valve instruments instead of slide trombones.

[Finetales]

This sounds like a good instrument for Mexican Banda music, which is prone to using valve instruments instead of slide trombones.

Banda trombonists exclusively use valve trombones in C. I suppose you could get away with playing a Bb, but if you play in a real banda they're gonna notice. Bb clarinets and Bb trumpets, but C valve trombones. Don't ask me why!

Fortunately, the way most Bb valve trombones are made means cutting them to C would be a very simple job. The modern C valve trombones they use are just Bbs with shortened valve sections anyway, the bell section is the same. Bbs and Cs sound a lot more different than you'd expect, though. I've played C valvers that sounded more like alto valve trombones. If I can get a hold of a second King flugabone, I'd like to cut it to C.

[bloke]

This sounds like a good instrument for Mexican Banda music, which is prone to using valve instruments instead of slide trombones.

Banda trombonists exclusively use valve trombones in C. I suppose you could get away with playing a Bb, but if you play in a real banda they're gonna notice. Bb clarinets and Bb trumpets, but C valve trombones. Don't ask me why!

Fortunately, the way most Bb valve trombones are made means cutting them to C would be a very simple job. The modern C valve trombones they use are just Bbs with shortened valve sections anyway, the bell section is the same. Bbs and Cs sound a lot more different than you'd expect, though. I've played C valvers that sounded more like alto valve trombones. If I can get a hold of a second King flugabone, I'd like to cut it to C.

I've often wondered about making a C "orchestral" trombone (perhaps from a Bach 36...??) by removing the main tuning slide tubing, moving the main tuning slide bow up those inches, and converting the slide to "tuning in the slide" (as with some old-school Olds/Conn/etc. bass trombones). If the math worked out, I'd otherwise leave the playing slide alone - offering more than 7 positions.
As far as an "F attachment" would be concerned, I'd decide on that length, once I determined what would be the most advantageous (maybe...?? fully-chromatic with only one valve - particularly considering the eight (??) position slide.
I have no idea (regardless of how good it might end up being) whether it would be of any use. Of course (as trombonists are almost all B-flat people with a few E-flat alto people), a whole bunch of peeps would pooh-pooh it...and who would blame them?

[Finetales]

As far as an "F attachment" would be concerned, I'd decide on that length, once I determined what would be the most advantageous (maybe...?? fully-chromatic with only one valve - particularly considering the eight (??) position slide.

Yes, a Bb-length slide gives 8 positions in C. Thein used to offer a Bb/ascending C tenor on their website, citing the slide as having 7 positions in Bb, 8 in C.

A few trombonists have shortened trombones to C, but it has nearly always been of the stands in Bb+ascending C valve variety rather than standing in C. It would be easy enough to flip the rotor to have the horn stand in C though.

[bloke]

As far as an "F attachment" would be concerned, I'd decide on that length, once I determined what would be the most advantageous (maybe...?? fully-chromatic with only one valve - particularly considering the eight (??) position slide.

Yes, a Bb-length slide gives 8 positions in C. Thein used to offer a Bb/ascending C tenor on their website, citing the slide as having 7 positions in Bb, 8 in C.

A few trombonists have shortened trombones to C, but it has nearly always been of the stands in Bb+ascending C valve variety rather than standing in C. It would be easy enough to flip the rotor to have the horn stand in C though.

yeah...but - rather than "preacher-model-ish", I was alluding to a fully chromatic C trombone (which would catch pitches from F - either 8th position, or C-trombone F-attachment) down to 1st position so-called "pedal" C.

[Finetales]

Well, the thought would be you could get a trombone originally designed as Bb/ascending C (especially if it retains the Bb-length slide), reverse the rotor so that it stands in C, and then lengthen the valve to go down to G or F to be chromatic. Or even better...add a 2nd valve!