Silver Jupiter 1110 - "bloke never posts any 'before' pics."

[bloke]

both lower bows...

Had I done something like this (as a kid, to my own school's three-worn-out-valves King) back in the early 1970's, I would have received
- a band director hard whipping
- a principal hard whipping
- a Dad hard whipping
- several lectures
- a two-day school suspension or a week board suspension ("board" being where I kid has to stand in front of the city's elected school board - at their weekly meeting, tell what they did in front of the world, and then be banned from school for a week - with no chance to make up work.)
- and would have had to somehow pay for the repairs myself

Times have changed.

Before doing the last (scheduled, so far) school (a large university, as their band camps are always last - even after middle schools begin their school year), I'm circling back to do a few concert instruments that were mixed in with high school marching instruments (in order to complete purchase orders, and be paid for completed p.o.'s).

JUST AS I always say that "you all know what torn-up instruments look like" (and some of you claim to not), I'm going to say that "you guys all know what not/un-torn-up instruments look like so - this time - no "after" pictures.


Some of you claimed - in the past - that children in your part of the country don't do stuff like this...I'm fairly sure that (after a couple more decades) this mind-cancer has spread throughout the country (incl. suburban/rural), and (just sayin') I've bought stuff in this condition from all over the U.S., straightened it out, and flipped it. This instrument was trashed at "refuge" school - ie. a school whereby people moved completely out of the county/state - across state lines - to "seek refuge". (People who do that are ALWAYS the people that "bring all the Sh!t WITH them, when they move.)

The nice thing about this Jupiter (vs. Miraphone, etc.) is that these parts fit loosely, so neither was I required to use much heat, nor to struggle to get them off.

I didn't include a chemical-clean job (to remove lime), but the valves don't work - so I'll probably do that while it's apart, so I can quickly determine whether the pistons/casings are coated with (basically) rock, whether they are bent, or both.


There's a St. Petersburg (same school / similar condition) as well. I dunno if I can get both of these done today, but I'm going to have them both done before Monday morning, at which time I'll drive these things to that school and turn the invoice in to the school's b̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶i̶r̶e̶c̶t̶o̶r̶ financial secretary. (The band director will receive a copy, but - well - I'm interested in being paid, so...)

[bloke]

Surprisingly,

- I like the way this metal works, as far as responding to me straightening it back out, and even though these dents were severe, the leg geometry on these two bows didn't move, even though I didn't stop and brace either one of them.

There were also some serious dents in slide bows and circuit bows. I'm ready to put it back together, once I clean off all the old solder.

I couldn't anneal anything; I would have melted the silver plating.

Two valve casings are bent... funzy gamesy.

I believe I'm seeing schools pulling instruments out of their junk piles, and handing them to me. I don't think the school systems have money to buy $5000, $8,000 or $10,000 tubas, but that doesn't matter. bloke can fix it. Pull this piece of junk out of the attic. Give it to bloke.

(...which is the way it should be. They shouldn't be tearing stuff up and throwing it in the junk pile. They should be fixing it, and living with it.)

[bloke]

Sunday lunch break...

Jupiter is done...valve casings repaired...mostly solder-joint tension releases from it being knocked over dozens of times (followed up with some careful burnishing of those casing ports which were slightly "jacked"), the Jupiter was (hopefully) the worst of the two...and now for the St. Pete.

I really want to hand these two back TOMORROW (before August), get an August date on this high school's invoice (for ALL the repairs), and have a luxurious ten days or so do do all of those university repairs. Mrs. bloke (university) has already done all the piccolos that needed repair (around ten) and has already repaired two or three of their terrible rained-on (rods seized) clarinets. She has a bunch of sax work to do. University-instruments-wise, I'm loaded down with sousaphones, and always do those first, as the "box instruments" (the "marching whatevers") are usually much easier.

OK...I've eaten my two slices of bologna, one slice of cheese, and choked down some dollar-store coffee...on to the smushed-up St. Pete.

So far, we have NOT mowed the property, this summer... Oddly (even with all the rain), it's only about 6 - 7 inches tall. (The PTO on the huge mower wore out, I stuck a new one on there, and it smokes...?? I'll deal with that when I actually have TIME to mow.) I HAVE passed through the flower beds, road edges, around the barn/shop, and carefully within the garden with Round Up twice (needs it again). I'm sure I'll join in that class-action suit they're trying to get going (because I'm sure I'm sick with something-or-other).

[bloke]

The nickel St. Pete is done.

- The small size of the bottom bow was smushed flat, and other large dents around the bottom/back/large size, and the strap ring and main slide brace were caved in...All that is fixed, without removing the bottom bow (thin metal + bloketrix).

- The upper bow and bell were somewhat damaged (not as badly)...' all fixed and Mrs. bloke did some very light/careful rebound dent removal under the mouthpiece receiver brace and underneath the adjustable thumb ring flange.

- The carriage brackets were all out of kilter, the carriage rod was bent underneath the #1 paddle's hinge rod, there was lime all over the back bearings, and two rotor stems were bent (plus - of course - loose screws, and [only...??] one shot rubber stop arm bumper)...All that is straightened out and properly aligned/adjusted without taking anything off, other than the rotor caps and a couple of the back bearings (which were falling out). The valve action is quiet and reliable (though I would hate playing it..."Quiet and reliable" is NOT synonymous with "the action is so well-balanced via design, that I'm not even aware of it".

All-in-all, I hate those things, but I can fix 'em, when I must.

The high school's band director will be in early Tuesday, I believe school starts REALLY early (Thursday).

I'm starting on the university instruments, tomorrow...

I have a (quintet and organ) church gig on the 13th...a rare August gig...' will be nice to PLAY a really wonderful tuba, rather than beat on really crappy ones.

Mrs. bloke bought a small carton of chocolate/chocolate-chip ice cream (we almost never buy ice cream...)
I'm mixing it with some George Dickel bourbon (I'm thinking it's a newish product vs. their traditional Tennessee whiskey) and climbing into bed.

bloke "I'm old and tired, but still better-'n'-y'all."

[bloke]

If they are interested in paying me the equivalent cost of unsmashing a third tuba (AND getting everything in the valveset working again - and silently) I' might consider polishing these. Otherwise: nope.





Phones always seem to do low-res. indoors, but I just don't want to drag these outside, right now.

[Three Valves]

That’s easy.

Knock them over and fix them again.

Eliminates the middle man!

[gnimoyw]

Very nice looking work! Out of curiosity what’s the ballpark cost of those repair jobs? Always interesting to see if something is “too far gone”.

[bloke]

OK...The Jupiter (a whole bunch of other dents - other places rather than those two bows (and - of course - the bell section), a whole bunch of solder joints (including difficult-to-notice "contact" joints), two messed up valve casings, and a "mystery reason" why it would NOT play at all (which I figured out was a sometime-in-the-past replaced #4 piston, which is much newer (clean/shiny stainless steel (with shiny brass porting) vs. the other three - which are the old nickel plated ones, and show minor wear, and the manufacturer had subsequently changed the guide orientation, so I had to drill a new guide hole and a new vent hole) ...the total charge was a little under a thousand.

The St. Pete was a bit more than half the cost of the Jupiter...I was gambling on being able to repair to bottom bow without removing it (as it has a BUNCH of braces to other things on it's bottow bow). The linkage was trashed-yet-repairable, and the bell flare was cracked.

They could each use more work (including chem clean jobs), but I don't have more time...Everything - in the summer - involves time-budgeting, in order to meet everyone's deadlines.

I dunno if that's ($$$) high or low, but it's me.
The cost of living here - compared to other places - is quite low. Donn tells me we're not paying enough tax., because all places charge exactly the same for the same services.

I have to pick up, deliver (time/gas and yeah, there were several other instruments), look them over, write up an quote on letterhead, repair (including stuff that I didn't notice when looking them over...It's more trouble than it's worth to revise quotes), and wait 45 days (after delivery) to be paid...so - besides all of that expended time and fuel that would be part of the cost for a walk-in - I'm also charging them interest on the 45 days that they choose to finance their purchases.

Both instruments (prior to being repaired) were useless. I have no idea if there's anyone else around here who could have repaired them...I really don't know any of the other people - around here - who do stuff with instruments. (I'm not competing with anyone else, when I have more work than I can possibly do, yes?) Also, I've lived out in the woods for around 17 years, I go into two or three cities, play jobs, and leave them as soon as those gigs are over with...ie. "semi-hermit'...so I only chat with the other musicians and - occasionally - with a few of the patrons.

Finally - before food/fuel/utilities doubled in price, I charged less...Maybe I should have charged more a long time ago (??), but that mess has been a wake-up call.

polishing: i just decided to polish the bell (here, inside the house) on the silver Jupiter - even though I wasn't going to. Otherwise, I'd be out in the shop - working on university sousaphones...and I just don't feel like going back out there at 8:00 P.M. Besides, I just sold a new JP tenor sax to a perfect stranger on fb...so I'm feeling slightly "rich". (Their "cheap" one is amazing...It's the FIRST ONE - though - that I've sold with THIS - see below - finish...)

[tubaing]

Not much to contribute to this thread other than:

1. The results look great (certainly good enough)
2. I enjoy these posts
3. I would enjoy this more with before pics
4. Whenever I play examples of the tuba models posted above, I rather like them (more intonation issues on the St. Pete) - certainly compared to a MW 25
5. I remember Conn-Selmer published a pamphlet or something a few years back as a guide for band directors and their schools that explains how long the useful life of band instruments is (before you should plan to go and buy more brand new instruments) and if band directors and schools followed the advice, Conn-Selmer would probably be in much better fiscal shape.

[bloke]

I've only worked on these Jupiter 1110 big B flats a couple of times before... They all belonged to the same school system. I'm thinking that not many people buy them around here. This one was torn up worse either of the others. I don't guess they're horrible instruments, but there are too many twists and turns, too many contact solder joints, and the mouthpipe angle is goofy - so as I have to set the bottom bow way out towards my knees for the mouthpiece to not hit me in the forehead, or else I suppose I could set the tuba of between my legs to play it. I think it's a bit heavy for its design, and that leads to children being able to tear it up more easily than some other makes...inertia, etc...

The St. Petes are always the same issues: thin metal and the carriage bar posts just aren't strong enough. That having been said, if they were stronger they would just bend the valve set tubing all up rather than snapping off when kids knock these things over, so maybe it's better for them to not be strong. Also, the St Pete sound is really (naturally) gruff. It just doesn't sound like something for a concert band's "the basses".

As a taxpayer though, I think I would rather see schools by St Petersburg tubas than spend over twice as much for a Yamaha rotary B-flat tubas. They're equally bad in different ways as well as a few of the same ways.

capped bottom bows:
I can't possibly charge prices like this and remove the bottom bow caps, iron them out separately, and reinstall them. Further, it would be a huge waste of taxpayer money, as probably the first thing that's going to happen is that some child is going to smash the bottom bow right back in like it was before. They don't look perfect after I finish them, but they look surprisingly good - even to me. I think I've gotten better at repairing the double layers of metal over the past 45 years.

I went back out to the shop after dinner and did one more thing to the first university sousaphone that I repaired today. I realized I had forgotten to do that thing - which was to round the ovaled female bell receiver. (It took more time to get the sousaphone out of the case and back into it than it took to round the receiver.) I brought the Wright's silver cream into the house and went ahead and polished that Jupiter tuba bell. It was actually faster than buffing it with yellow buff would have been, and I sweated an awful lot less (ie. not) than I would have in that hot buffing room holding that awkward-shaped Jupiter tuba up in the air.

[Rick Denney]

I think you achieved slightly better results than I did on my "Giardinelli" 101. But I think it took you about 1/10 the time I spent. :) When I tell the story, however, I'll say "this was a quickie repair to make it playable". Quick, compared to, say, geologic processes. It's all relative.

I'll say this, though--however it looks, it plays wonderfully, and I bet about a thousand percent better than both of the tubas in this thread. But that's not because of anything I did, of course.

Rick "suspecting the 101 was also the product of years of school destruction" Denney

[bloke]

Including all of the paperwork and driving, I probably charged a bit over $100/hr. ($120...??) but they're paying for my premium (time of year) time, and - also - I'm going to get my @$$ taxed off on this money - money which - post 2020 - buys "about half".

Again...If these schools would
- bring me all this junk right after they're through with it in the fall (allowing me to repair it in a less-frantic manner...so I could take care of EVEN MORE schools),
- pay on the spot,
- FRONT me a little bit of the cost, for buying all of these non-repairable parts,
- bring it here and pick it up (again, with a check in their hand),

I'd charge a good bit less...but they don't do any of those things, do they?...and they really don't care, because it's "your" money, and doesn't come out of their pockets (at least, not that they realize), so...


post script...
I might actually sorta like the Jupiter,
- were it not so heavy,
- were it not so awkward to hold (to get the mouthpiece down to my mouth)
- were it to offer a little bit better intonation/response at the top of the staff (which is a bit "in-the-cracks-ish")...
...It reminds me a lot of the Kanstul stuff, which was also "freestyled" - recyling (as it were) designed-to-be-top-action valvesets.

@Rick Denney I like the B&S 101 instruments - particularly when they're sorta close to mint (ie. some imaginary shiny kranz'ed "Schneider" in its original nice case), but I've already got this very compact 4/4-York-like B-flat Holton thing, which would be used for the same gigs.
question: How much do you pull your main slide to achieve (on average, obviously) A=440 hz?

[iiipopes]

I might actually sorta like the Jupiter,
- were it not so heavy,
- were it not so awkward to hold (to get the mouthpiece down to my mouth)
- were it to offer a little bit better intonation/response at the top of the staff (which is a bit "in-the-cracks-ish")...
...It reminds me a lot of the Kanstul stuff, which was also "freestyled" - recyling (as it were) designed-to-be-top-action valvesets.

I play a JTU1110 as my main tuba in community band.
The mass keeps it from breaking up at high dynamic levels, which I occasionally have to play, being the only tuba in the band;
To me, it is not awkward, but I posted before how I had the lead pipe and receiver tailored to me.
On my particular example, intonation is secure, for example, on the runs in the dogfight section of The Thunderer march.
I never played any Kanstul tubas.
Additionally, I have had my tech put a water key on the 2nd valve slide, since the design of the tuba seems to push the water through the 1st valve and into the 2nd.

It appears that we have two completely "different" tubas, and that mine has actually benefitted from the tweaks suggested by Patrick Sheridan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6DzErpil5E

[bloke]

You changing the mouthpipe solved the most annoying problem, as far as I'm concerned.

The intonation is okay up to to B flat at the top of the staff, and that's most pieces. John Williams D's and E's seem to come up more often than they did in the past (in otherwise contrabass tuba parts), and those would prove to be dicey.
That range is one of the reasons I shelled out some dough for the big B flat I purchased not long not too long ago.

I tend to have a bias against top action valve blocks which are repurposed as front action. I guess I shouldn't.

[arpthark]

I tend to have a bias against top action valve blocks which are repurposed as front action. I guess I shouldn't.

Is there any way to tell whether a front-action block is a repurposed top-action?

I know from word of mouth that Kanstul (and maybe the Yamaha 621s?) did this, but what is the physical way that this manifests on a tuba? Can you tell by the bends coming out of the ports?

[bloke]

If you look at the porting, you see that it's set up for top action. The more noticeable thing is the weird routing of slides.

The most difficult problem to solve is the second valve circuit. Yamaha (and knock-offs) solves it by sending it up at a funny angle, and Jupiter solves it with a pair of severe doglegs. Those who buy into the open wrap thing - and buy into the air flow thing (vs. the air vibration thing) probably think the second valve Jupiter solution is pretty cool.

Some of the goofiest examples are those Besson sousaphones that had all that tubing jammed up in a tight ball on the wrong sides of the valves - crowded in next to the third branch. That having been said, if I could figure out a way to shoehorn an old Besson 3-valve ~compensating~ system onto a sousaphone (without wasting a month or two of my life), that might be fun. The possibility of in-tune sousaphone 13 and 123 is sort of alluring. (Four-valve non-compensating instruments don't seem to be of much use to me. The next half step below 24 really isn't usable, only 234 is usually usable, and 24 is still sharp.)
I'm reminded of a phone call that is Jupiter guy made to me not too long ago. I think I'll keep it to myself.

I have no reason to assume that the top-to-front-action block repurposing has a negative effect on anything. The reason I called it a "bias" is because I'm not basing my dislike for it on anything logical.