Help identifying 2 Miraphone Tubas

[harisbaco]

Greetings to the members of the forum.
My name is Haris and this is my first post.
I'm an amateur collector of musical instruments and a seller near me is selling two Miraphone tubas; a vintage one Bb (from the 60s or 70s) and a newer one Eb.
I am attaching photos.
Any info on the date of the tubas and their value would be much appreciated.
The vintage is in working order, and the newer one is in excellent condition (according to the seller).
This is the vintage one:

[harisbaco]

And this is the newer one:

[bloke]

Is the second one a 183 E-flat from the 1970's?

Sometimes, it's easier to identify things as large as tubas when the are set completely upright and a good picture is taken from ten feet (rather than two feet) away.

[Stryk]

The serial number is usually beneath the triangle on the bell.

[harisbaco]

I am afraid that is all I have in terms of photos and info.
Any chance that we determine the value and date of the instruments?

[bloke]

meant-without-malice sarcastic joke:

One way to determine the value is to ask $10,000 for each one, and drop the price until they sell.

Another way is to put them on eBay, start them each at $1, and see where they end up.


non-sarcastic and meant-to-be-helpful comment: (though not an answer to your question)

Models that don't sell often really don't have established values, because there isn't enough of a record of people buying them recently or at all.

[Stryk]

They both only have 3 valves. The quality is still Miraphone - very high quality. Unfortunately, with 3 valves, they are not much more than high school student line horns at best. Maybe someone would buy them to add a couple more valves to, or for parts, but for most folks on here, they are not very useful as they are.

[Stryk]

Yeah, it’s gonna cost between $500 and $1000 to add a fourth valve to those tubas, so that needs to be factored into the cost.

For the Bb, search up 184 and 185 prices and deduct for improvements. The 186 may be a useful data point, but 186 prices are going to be about 10-20% higher than the 185/185.

For the Eb, search up 183 prices and deduct for improvements as well. Problem here, like @bloke points out, there aren’t a lot of transactions on these models.

If someone had a trashed bell and bottom bow, you’d probably flip these quickly. As beautifully made and preserved as these horns are, they may be worth more as parts.

[jtm]

Miraphone was using more modern shaped keys and springs with the S-links by the mid 60s, right? So both of these are early 60s or older.

The "Miraphone" labels and lack of serial numbers means they were sold in Europe? Or maybe sold before the American importer that promoted the "Mirafone" brand.

Is the Eb tuba all nickel-silver (like a Conn 8D)?

Maybe they're good strolling tubas, with only 3 valves.

[ProAm]

The newer one appears to be silver plated. You can see brass on the pulled tuning slide but I guess there could still be a lot of nickel-silver underneath the plating.

Don’t both instruments have the same basic wrap? Both are Eb’s?

Some photos have a watermark with a “.gr” which is the domain name for Greece. That and the wording in the poster’s questions makes me think European. Location should make a big difference on valuation, wouldn’t it?

[harisbaco]

Thanks for the comments.
Since there don’t seem to be as collectible as I thought, I could just buy them to make some profit.
The seller is asking €1100 for both of them.
I’ll sleep on it.
Again, thanks so much!

[LeMark]

The newer one appears to be silver plated. You can see brass on the pulled tuning slide but I guess there could still be a lot of nickel-silver underneath the plating.

Don’t both instruments have the same basic wrap? Both are Eb’s?

Some photos have a watermark with a “.gr” which is the domain name for Greece. That and the wording in the poster’s questions makes me think European. Location should make a big difference on valuation, wouldn’t it?

The length of the 1st valve slide tells me the older one is a BBb

[arpthark]

The newer one appears to be silver plated. You can see brass on the pulled tuning slide but I guess there could still be a lot of nickel-silver underneath the plating.

Don’t both instruments have the same basic wrap? Both are Eb’s?

Some photos have a watermark with a “.gr” which is the domain name for Greece. That and the wording in the poster’s questions makes me think European. Location should make a big difference on valuation, wouldn’t it?

The length of the 1st valve slide tells me the older one is a BBb

Yup. The older one also has an extra loop of tubing 'round back--definitely BBb.

I think 1100 euros (about $1200) for two old oddball three-valve Miraphones in great shape seems pretty fair to me here in the USA (but I'm just a layman tuba deal-watcher and definitely not a dealer and definitely not European). There may be more of a market in Europe for three valve horns for players to use as marching/strolling tubas, etc.

An example of how tuba prices don't really align internationally is the number of fairly cheap (to us) compensating euphoniums and Eb tubas available in the UK.

[bloke]

I've been completely off track before, but I'm having trouble imagining making as much selling them as I would spend in time and money making them desirable to a typical buyer.

Someone - last year - gave me a shiny but quite beat up tuba that is European-made - yet not as prestigious a brand, but it's a four rotor tuba and all the rotors work. Not all of the paddles were there, but I had a complete set of paddles off of a trashed Chinese instrument - and all those pedals were good. Because that instrument didn't cost me anything, the metal was a little bit thinner than typical Miraphone metal (and I was able to smooth out the entire instrument without taking it apart into pieces), I was able to sell that instrument for a couple thousand dollars to a church - all smoothed out.
I probably made about as much as I would have charged to make that instrument playable for someone who might have actually brought it to me in that condition to repair for them, but that's about it.

I'm thinking that if I added a valve to both of those Miraphone tubas, changed out the linkage on both, smoothed out the B-flat, and then sold the B-flat for $3,500 and sold the E flat for $1500 dollars, I wouldn't recover time and costs, even if those tubas were given to me. As the E-flat is apparently silver plated, there would be additional problems of a patched together appearance, cosmetically.

If someone could be convinced that the rotors are in good shape and that the bells are in good shape - particularly the B-flat bell, I could see someone buying them as parts instruments for something.

I'm one person with one set of opinions (based on some somewhat difficult to interpret pictures), and I could very easily be way off track, here.

Most people seem to like bags - even though they're not very protective, but that wood case - even though old is very well made - might possibly (??) fit a popular older model which is designated as model 184. I'm not sure it would fit, though.