Tuba Tuesday: Martin, Handcraft, BB flat tuba, 4 piston, c.1956

[bisontuba]

Happy Tuba Tuesday. Today, the Museum features a Martin, Handcraft, BB flat tuba, 4 piston, c.1956.

Serial #: 199571

Bell Diameter 24.0″, Bore: .720″, Height: 39.0″.

Comments:

“MARTIN / Handcraft / ELKHART / IND.” on bell. Floral engraving around identification marks. The bell flare is almost certainly older than the horn body. The bell looks to be from ~1930.



https://simonettitubacollection.com/ins ... -4-piston/

[The Big Ben]

That could be a real boomer of a horn. Hello, concert band and J.P. Sousa!

[bloke]

' yet another example of a perfectly good tuba that could be making music - rather than collecting dust.

A "tuba museum" is for oddball/worn-out-valves/cracks & A=448 or A=432 stuff.

[bort2.0]

I tried talking to Vince about that. I'm sure you know how that went.

Very nice guy though, don't get me wrong. And at least some things in the collection get used from time to time. Like a major orchestra tuba player who borrowed his French C tuba for Pictures, in exchange for concert tickets.

Some stuff in the collection is ready to go, other stuff doesn't work, and most probably needs a cleaning/servicing and then will spring to life.

I hope Vince lives until he's 105+ years old... but I do wonder how he has planned the future of it after the eventuality of life runs its course. Not my business. But curious.

For now, I'd just suggest that anyone who wants to go, should plan to go sooner than later. And I mean that with great care and respect.

[bisontuba]

' yet another example of a perfectly good tuba that could be making music - rather than collecting dust.

A "tuba museum" is for oddball/worn-out-valves/cracks & A=448 or A=432 stuff.

WRONG.....

[tofu]

I tried talking to Vince about that. I'm sure you know how that went.

Very nice guy though, don't get me wrong. And at least some things in the collection get used from time to time. Like a major orchestra tuba player who borrowed his French C tuba for Pictures, in exchange for concert tickets.

Some stuff in the collection is ready to go, other stuff doesn't work, and most probably needs a cleaning/servicing and then will spring to life.

I hope Vince lives until he's 105+ years old... but I do wonder how he has planned the future of it after the eventuality of life runs its course. Not my business. But curious.

For now, I'd just suggest that anyone who wants to go, should plan to go sooner than later. And I mean that with great care and respect.

Never been there & have no real knowledge of the old Tuba Exchange. I remember there was a son. I only know this as he was one of two tuba player/students that Sam P used at his masterclass on jazz improvisation @the 1995 national ITEC held @
Northwestern. I thought Vince Sr. passed away several years ago. Are you referring to the son? Is he that old? Wasn't there a daughter involved as well?

[tofu]

' yet another example of a perfectly good tuba that could be making music - rather than collecting dust.

A "tuba museum" is for oddball/worn-out-valves/cracks & A=448 or A=432 stuff.

WRONG.....

Agreed.

It's a great resource especially for folks with similar tubas looking for repair info or dating or the historical evolution of the instrument. Far better there than in the hands of some kid trashing them or back in the day when people thought they had no value when some one died and they just got dumped in the dumpster.

[bort2.0]

I went to the museum in May of 2022. Vince was probably at least 80 years old. Assuming Sr...? Short, wirey, high energy, extremely sharp memory. Seemed like plenty left in the tank

[bloke]

Maybe the really good-to-special serviceable instruments - that could be making music - will end up in the hands of players, sooner or later.

One person (who disagrees with me on just about everything that actually matters - and tubas don't really matter all that much) said "wrong", and another person claims for research purposes. Who goes in there for research purposes? Everything's behind a Do Not Touch rope - or hooked to the wall or ceiling - yes? Does anyone actually believe that anything in there that's really special is going to end up donated to some middle school when this display of someone's collection is ultimately liquidated? ... and if everything were donated to a middle school, and that implies that they would just get torn up being donated to a middle school, what's the purpose of the museum anyway? What's going to stop a gang of middle school hoodlums from breaking into a museum and trashing everything? That knee-jerk response is silly. ...Okay, that might possibly happen in that person's town or the one I moved away from, but not most places.

So far, I've received a one-word emotional rebuttal and a nonsense rebuttal.

[tofu]

So what. The guy has a tuba collection. His money. His stuff. What's it to you? Plenty of tubas out there. If we run out - guess what - they'll make more. Are there swarms of people out there begging for tubas because they're no where to be found?

How about all that land you live on. Think of all the people from Memphis that could live on it. That's the logic you're applying to somebody else's stuff. His stuff his rules. Beyond you nobody else seems to have a problem with the museum and many folks seem to appreciate that it exists.

It's gotta be tiring shaking your fist out the window all day long yelling at everybody & everything.

[bloke]

I completely acknowledge that all that stuff is private property, and to do with as the owner wishes (and it doesn't matter whether I agree or not; that's the way it is). I'm just suggesting that - in my opinion - the private owner is not making a wise decision - regarding what their doing with them (other than any goofball and worn-out-valves curios and similarly categorized items). ... and I'm not suggesting donating the viable not-particularly-rare instruments, but selling them - so that they will be played and heard.

I'm pretty sure my earlier comment - where I discounted a couple of posts that disagreed with my opinion - was deleted, and I'm only mentioning this to explain this post - which is being typed right now - to the spectators (with no attempt here to repost it).

My personal instruments date to (best memory/guesses) 1958, 1982, 1960, 1964, 1972, 1973, 1978, 1983, 1991, 1998, and the most recently made around 2014. They're all remarkably good, they are all either made in the USA, England, or Germany, and they all need to be sold to players upon my demise (or earlier, if I can no longer play). They don't need to be rarely on display - in some mostly-locked-up building - as dead instruments. As many here know - even though this may seem like a bunch of instruments - I use all of them to earn money, and - anytime I realize that one isn't being used anymore - it ends up being sold to a player- and even when this prompts people to send me private messages telling me that I was crazy to sell fill-in-the-blank... so I believe that I do as I say and say as I do.

A private message from someone - who completely agrees with me - described the instruments that are on display there (those which are perfectly viable for - use by even professionals) as "dead tubas". ... things such as Martin 6/4 tubas, Miraphone 186 tubas, and so forth and so on.

I suspect such instruments are going to be "dead" for a while longer, but hopefully not forever.

[bisontuba]

Preserving the past...not hoarding 'dead' items....we are fortunate to have Museums where you can SEE Historical artifacts....collectors too are wise to show or go give talks about their speciality...and in the case of musical instruments of historical interest...you can see AND hear history...

[bloke]

Thank-you for entering the word, "hoarding", into the discussion; I was reluctant to do so.
(Again: Individuals have a right to do as they choose with their wealth in this country - including hoarding...well...unless it's stuff that our rulers don't like seeing hoarded.)

Statistics and probabilities indicate that - within a decade or less - the collection will likely be liquidated.
Hopefully, the really great and viable instruments will find their ways into the hands of really great (or even mediocre) players - who will PLAY and REGULARLY ENJOY them.
Musical instruments are machines, and not intended as visual art. This is particularly true for those from the reasonably modern era (which are completely functional).
If disposal instructions end being that they be donated from this collection to a museum, hopefully - the recipient museum will sort out the viable very-playable instruments, and do as I suggested above.
Each time one of those viable/excellent/modern-era instruments is taken to a rehearsal or performance, it will then be on display for dozens, hundreds, or thousands to see (and - as tremendous bonus) also hear.

[bisontuba]

A Museum, like a Library, is a valuable commodity for both young and old. Having as much diversity inside each, whether antique or vintage, provides knowledge to folks. Saying to not have newish or other instruments in a musical museum or section, is like saying not to have certain books in a library. Just WRONG.

[bort2.0]

People get to read the books, though.

[bisontuba]

People get to read the books, though.

Totally missing the point. Museums and libraries should have whatever items they want. If it is new or newish but follows their mission statement, why not?
Maybe the Tuba Museum has an endowment....maybe it doesn't. For some people to criticize an individual in opening up a Museum is just nuts. Be thankful, not resentful.
A friend of mine just donated the largest musical ephemera collection in the world...
Over 4,000 items...to a University, for folks to see. study, and learn from. Some are quite old...others are newish. I have a friend who is going to donate one of the nicest musical instrument collectiontions in the World to the Library of Congress....some instruments are newish....what is wrong with that?
If the Tuba Museum got a Yamayork, Nirsch 6/4, etc...what is wrong with that?

Mark

[matt g]

People get to read the books, though.

Not always. Specifically antique and/or high value texts are special reserve and not open for just anyone to check out. Even the library in my small city has a special collection like this.

The Met has a fairly extensive brass instrument collection. It’s plausible that some larger scale museum would take over the V&E collection when it’s time.

[bloke]

I deleted a bunch prior to posting, but this remains:

just as one single example...
Why keep a great-playing 1960's 186 C tuba off the market?
I've come across several, bought them, brought them back to their full glory, and put them in the hands of those who will use and have used them...a bunch (and cared for them). They're appearing on youtube (not just "dead" pictures, but "live-ISH" videos) and are heard (actually) live quite often (vs. never). They're not collecting dust, and (at least) once they're finally worn-out (unless cared for as well as I care for my own instruments - for the time that I own/use them) they will have served their proper function (as musical instruments, rather than as mostly-hidden-away dust-collecting decor or bragging fodder)...

...and (not trying to pull a "look at what a good Christian I'm am" Mike Pence bullcrap thing, here) but: I sold them for acquisition cost, the value of the extensive labor to restore/possibly modernize them (to render them even more viable), to put (or not, which was less money) a finish on them, and maybe another $1000 on top - so-as to have accomplished something other than simply "buying myself a job". Usually, about the same-or-a-bit-less than the cost of a new hydraulically-formed one.

People do all sorts of not-clever things (raising my OWN hand, frantically, here), and hiding away great musical instruments is just one of an infinite number of unwise things that people do.

[bort2.0]

Frankly, tubas are all pretty new, that makes the static collection idea strange to me. I mean,, there's no such thing as a Stradivarius collection, where all the oldest and best violins live and sit unplayed. Those things are owned, played, and hundreds of years old. And when the current owner is done with it, it'll go on to the next player to buy it.

Tubas are inherently more durable than wooden violins... why on earth should a tuba be condemned to a small house in North Carolina? With proper maintenance, repair, and a reasonable amount of carefulness, tubas should last for generations. I think our culture needs to embrace and accept that the things we make will long, long outlast ourselves.

Tuba <--> Person ownership is really more like stewardship, because you're really just using and responsible for that horn for a few decades. That tuba has plenty more to give after you're gone, and it sure doesn't matter to the tuba who is playing it.

I think it's borderline crass to think that there are more than like 2 or 3 tubas that truly should never be played again, out of extreme respect for the artist. Ala, nobody is going to play Louis Armstrong's trumpet again... I guess there's some tuba version of that like Harvey or Bill Bell or something. But I also think those aren't the horns we are talking about, because some of those were just never great to begin with, and by modern standards... they stink.

We can argue in circles all day, it's a paradox...

Preserve uba history by removing items from service and putting them up for display...
....but also shape the future by removing those instruments from service and redefining what can/will be used moving forward.

Or, it's like the uncertainty principle... you can't physically preserve historical artifacts, while simultaneously keeping historical artifacts in service.

I have no ill will, jealousy, etc towards Vince or any other collector of instruments or things. I just want to see the usable stuff continue to get used, especially when. It's irreplaceable.

I always me tion Lenny Jung's 6/4 Martin tuba...best tuba sound I've ever heard. The tuba made the sound, Lenny made the music. Someone else could 100% continue to make music on that incredible one of a kind tuba.

I think living history, in some cases, is a better way of honoring the past than static history

I mean... how many "old cars" do you see on the road cruising around on the first nice day in the spring? Not saying you can or should drive it every day, but you better not just keep it in the garage and never touch it. Because at the end of the movie, it drives out of a window and crashes I to the woods.

[Dents Be Gone!]

There’s an elephant in the room that no one is pointing out. So, I won’t point it out either. But, it’s there. Sitting and staring at us.

Don’t think about a zebra or an elephant either.