3rd partial

[Ricardo]

So a bit of background: I am a reasonably good amateur whose intonation awareness has improved markedly over the last couple of years.

I tend to play Bb or Eb tubas and have played a lot of different models over the last 5-10 years - old, new, German, English, Chinese, Japanese. But the issue I face is fairly common across all of them. I play the 3rd partial very flat if I really relax and aim for a round sound. To counter this I usually pick a mouthpiece that keeps the 3rd partial from sagging and/or aim high with a tighter embouchure. But then the sound is more focused/brighter/more nasal.

Is this relatively common with the third partial? Also just checking when I mean third partial I refer to, on a Eb tuba, the Bb on the second ledger line from the bottom.

Thanks

[bloke]

That partial sitting "acoustically below equal temperament" (as well as 5th and 8th...and sometimes 4th) is common with brass instruments, and particularly common with more conical ones. (It's also quite common for the 2nd partial to tend "high", but tuba players are so good at playing that partial with a loosened embouchure, that some - who own tubas with that tendency - never realize it.)

Shallower mouthpieces with smaller throats (in my experience) make it easier to push not-in-tune-with-our-tuning-system pitches up higher with the least amount of loss of resonance. Obviously, shallower mouthpieces with smaller throats tend to offer their own resonance characteristics (more "highs" in the sound, typically). As a comment about this, more-and-more people seem to tend to rely on mouthpiece interior shape MORE - and striving to perfect their own lips' vibrating resonance LESS - these days, in seeking ideal resonance characteristics. ...I'm suggesting that a beautiful bass-favoring type of resonance CAN be achieved with NOT-super-deep-cup mouthpieces, when a player becomes more serious about their own body's (lips' vibrations, etc.) resonance characteristics.

There are tubas which feature very little 3rd partial sag, and there are even tubas which feature very little 3rd, 5th, and 8th partial sag.
Some of those tubas, though (which don't feature any of that sagging) instead feature 6th-and-8th-partial "climb" (some Rudolf Meinl tuba models come to mind)...but there are also a few models (built in various keys) that feature very little sag and very little climb on any models and (making a good situation even better) are very flexible (ie. moving the pitches with one's embouchure (lips' vibrations) and mouth cavity has very little detrimental effect on those models' resonance characteristics).

...so (summarizing)
> There ARE models of tubas (built in all lengths) where partials line up much closer to human-defined equal temperament.
> Shallower cup mouthpieces TEND to make it easier to move sagging pitches up, and with fewer resonance consequences.
> There ARE ways (practicing, etc.) to beautify (with desirable overtones resonating in the sound, and without undesirable overtones resonating) the resonance characteristics of a tuba/mouthpiece/player set without automatically resorting to a super-deep interior-cup mouthpiece and large throat.

bloke "I've always found it much easier to find ways to raise pitches (as they all tend to want to raise when playing LOUD, anyway) than to lower them...so I tend to gravitate towards instruments with a few 'flat' problems, and to eschew tubas with 'sharp' problems."

[jtm]

...
There are tubas which feature very little 3rd partial sag, and there are even tubas which feature very little 3rd, 5th, and 8th partial sag.
...

I wonder if I'll ever find (and decide I can afford) such a tuba? And if it will sound too much like a trombone?

[bloke]

most later-vintage 186 (B-flat and C) tubas, 188 (C) tubas, older B-flat 186 tubas, some older 186 C tubas, most 2155 (C) tubas...

quite a few of the compensating E-flat tubas, the older Edgware St. B-flat compensating tubas (with the exception of a quite-sharp E-flat in the staff)...

There are quite a few other "darn good intonation" models of tubas out there...

(continuing to think of a couple...)

Actually, some of the Nirschl 4/4 C and Besson (basically the same design) C tubas play in tune remarkably well...but these tend to be "spotty".

KING 4/4 B-flat tubas (regardless of era) are another, and are NOT expensive.