Question about 4 valve compensating tubas

[cthuba]

Are they fully chromatic? I’ve been curious about a 5 valve versus a 4 valve for solos, quintet and orchestra. Looking for an all around bass horn.

[cthuba]

Fully chromatic, within reason.

The note a semitone above the fundamental is going to be sharp for sure. Same with the few notes above it.

The Besson 983 and 993 are clever solutions insofar that the slides are a bit more accessible to adjust for the inconsistencies, but they still have some issues.

The biggest attraction is that the fourth valve acts more like an “octave key” on compensating tubas such that you don’t get the (initially odd feeling) fingerings one does on a non-compensating tuba in the low register.

[2nd tenor]

Are they fully chromatic? I’ve been curious about a 5 valve versus a 4 valve for solos, quintet and orchestra. Looking for an all around bass horn.

Depends what you mean by fully chromatic. I’ve a four valve compensating Besson Eb bass and can play every tone and semitone over a three octave range. If I were a bit more skilled then the range would be more. Are the notes in tune? Yes, well as much as they are on anything.

[Thomas]

I play an old compensated Besson New Standard 4 valve BBb (17" bell) and it's not just fully chromatic but also has no real intonation issues or picky notes over the usable range of 3 octaves. Depending on the setting my traditional German Kaiser fits better soundwise and regarding accessible range(!), but to be in tune it needs 1st slide pulling and 12/23 for 5th partial D/Db with (for me) some challenge playing legatos in mezzo and below with these particular notes involved. The Besson for me is my "Swiss Army Knive".

[bloke]

The really old compensating Besson B flat tubas with the 17-inch bells might actually play a little bit better in tune than the euphoniums from that era, particularly if somehow the pistons are not worn from age.
Just as with the euphoniums, I would expect the upper E flat (third space) to be quite sharp. It's possible that adding third valve will flatten it, but not guaranteed. I've been able to manage to get a usable half step above the fundamental by making the number three compensating slide on the back of the instrument extra extra long, and it really doesn't seem to mess up anything and actually helps the halftone above it and and barely messes up the halftone above that. I just really don't see - though - how anyone really needs a double low B natural, and that pitch can be faked with valves two and three anyway.

Others can easily refute my findings with their words, but I haven't found any three plus one compensating B flat tubas with as few intonation problems as those I discussed in the previous long paragraph.

[C J]

If you mean that fully chromatic compensation system means that every note will be magically in tune the answer is no.
The compensation system kicks in when you use the fourth valve.
So every note that doesn't use the 4the valve is subject to the same tuning issues as a non compensating horn

[bloke]

The only compensating system that corrects and lengthens the three valve combinations is the three valve compensating system. It makes 1-2 longer, it makes 1-3 longer, and it makes 1-2-3 longer. Many believe that it makes 2-3 a bit too long, and I probably would agree with them. Overtone inconsistencies play into this - just as they do with any other system, and there's no perfect tuning.

[iiipopes]

The only compensating system that corrects and lengthens the three valve combinations is the three valve compensating system. It makes 1-2 longer, it makes 1-3 longer, and it makes 1-2-3 longer. Many believe that it makes 2-3 a bit too long, and I probably would agree with them. Overtone inconsistencies play into this - just as they do with any other system, and there's no perfect tuning.

If a person's repertoire does not require anything below F below open 2nd ledger line BBb (read: community band), then the 3-valve is more in tune. I used to own one, so this observation is from personal experience. You can set all the individual valve slides "dead," so all open and single valve notes are in tune. G's and D's are played 3rd valve alone instead of 1+2. 1+3 C above low open BBb can be stuffy.

[bloke]

I was politely told that it does not correct the 1-2 issue, but (though I do not know for certain) I also do not know for certain that it does not...I'm thinking of that little loop that sticks sideways out of the #1 casing on those.

Anyway...I'm acknowledging the note, and letting everyone know that I could be wrong about part of my post.

[Doc]

Yes, they are fully chromatic. And yes, they can be played in tune. The better ones certainly can.

[donn]

The Blaikley Compensating System, by David Werden.

See the demo pages for diagrammatic representations of the two different systems.

[Tubeast]

On an EEb, the 4th valve turns the horn into a 3-valve BBb.
I understand it is common practise to pull the compensating 3rd slide (the one pointing towards the player) as far as it´ll reasonably go to get an in-tune 4-1-3 combination. (i.e. for low F).

There´s no reason why the E below that should be in-tune under these circumstances. At least a tube length calculation should tell you otherwise. Many compensating Euphoniums have a main slide trigger, and accomplished players tend to not view them as decoration.

My guess is the tubas are easy enough to lip for correct intonation, maybe to the extent that one doesn´t really notice a conscious lipping action.

So yes, as many have already stated: 4V compers are fully chromatic down to their 1st partial.

[matt g]

As mentioned above, there’s usually some smart slide setup required, especially for the top action valve horns, like the Besson 994 I once owned.

First off, yes, third valve is set as being flat. Well, kinda. I set up third valve so that low D was in tune 3-4. Db will be close.

Low C and B will need some pull on first valve. That’s where things get interesting since you kinda have to plan this in advance.

D in the staff was preferable with 1-2. No surprise. C could be played 1 with the slide shoved in and lipped up a wee bit.

The contortions above are why I prefer front action horns. There’s no true perfection of intonation with only 4 or even 5 valves under hand (arguably 6 as well, but the added set of alternates get you reallllllllllllly close), so having the left hand free of valve duty is useful.

I will say that the 994 I had offered a quite reasonable scale. Not 188-like, but as close as the MW32 I once owned. A lot of the intonation could be lipped, but when pushing the horn to the limit, slots narrow.

Anyhow, fully chromatic is a yes. Just don’t expect to peg the needle on the tuner.

[Sousaswag]

I think some of these makes (particularly comp Eb’s) are the easiest-to-play-in-tune of any. They just work. No horn is perfect, but the Besson Eb’s haven’t changed much for a reason.

Yes, they’re fully chromatic but really run out of gas with several valves pushed down.

I wonder if part of it is that it’s really hard to pull slides on 3+1 instruments, so you learn to set them and forget them.

I don’t like comp BBb’s that much as to me they just feel huge and hard to play. To each their own.