mid-1970's "Mira-hate" propaganda

[bloke]

I recall

(about the time that a tuba store in the northern Midwest was coming to the fore - a store which did not carry Mirafone - as Mirafone importation was controlled by a single importer - an importer that - in effect - "retailed" the instruments to dealers and consumers - after purchasing them wholesale)

some pretty strong anti-Mirafone propaganda/brainwashing amongst college children - particularly when I was up at Interlochen Arts Camp (then: "National Music Camp"), which was somewhat georgraphically close to that northern Midwestern store.

A few years later (after that same retailer seemed to have gathered exclusive importation of even more makes - in the same way that a California-moved-to-south-Texas firm - at that time - controlled Mirafone importation) the college-children anti-Mirafone bigotry seemed to grow even stronger. "Oh...You own a Mirafone...so when are you going to get a REAL tuba...??" (etc.)

Understanding what was going on (via a long-ago-collapsed studio-teaching network of "artists") I completely understood then - just as well as I know now - what was occurring. I also observed that it was only coming from college children's mouths and not from recognizable-to-tuba-players (even though no internet) orchestral players' mouths.

the purpose of the post:

I'm just curious as to whether anyone else (in my age range) noticed the same "stuff" occurring.

Also, I find it interesting how much things change, over time.
- Very few of those makes/models sold out of that midwestern store (in the mid-1970's) have much of a following, anymore (other than one make, which emerged in the 1980's).
- That particular store is (yes?) gone.
- Miraphone (in spite of Asian competition) seems to be roaring, and even particular Miraphone models of which I'm not personally particularly fond are raved about by - and tops on the wish lists of - many college-aged children.
- Today, professional players are - in particular - seeking out non-trashed model 86 Mirafone tubas made (yup) around the mid-1970's and earlier.

[Rick Denney]

The Sunnyvale distributor successfully turned Miraphone into the standard instrument for schools that wanted to be perceived as upscale. That vastly increased Miraphone’s sales in the US, but it also made Miraphone a “student” instrument. College kids needed an upgrade path—just human nature.

I suspect Miraphone would have never become a market leader in the US but for that, which fed their ability to hire Roger Bobo as their endorser/influencer.

But there’s also this: orchestra pros wanted something with more power than a 186, which is why the 188 came to be. Not everyone had Bobo’s power, and as popular as the 188 was, it still never owned the broad orchestral market.

Alexander was the rotary tuba to own as soon as the post WWII anti-German bias faded, it seems to me. (That’s about when the American companies accelerated their race to the bottom, with King being the only survivor.) Chester Schmitz was probably the leading proponent and he was admired greatly by orchestra pros. This was in the 60’s. A 163 is clearly more of a power instrument in an orchestra compared to a 186, challenging intonation notwithstanding. 163’s were used by many of the greats of Bobo’s generation who were not from Southern California, but California and Texas were still Miraphone strongholds.

The revival of the York-style grand orchestral tuba came later, around 1980, when Hirsbrunner made a decent copy of Jacobs’s tuba good enough to be desirable to his many students. That’s the first intrusion of that northern Midwest importer into my view of the history.

A friend of ours purchased a Rudi Meinl 5/4 some years ago, and when subbing with the symphony, received accolades he had never received when using his 186. RM was thought by some to be a poor man’s Alex, but it’s definitely more of a power sound than a Miraphone.

Miraphone’s current success seems to me based on their business model—they are not tied to a particular designer or craftsman, and can be more agile in the market. They have also done very well at building a high-service model, justifying their higher prices.

But every company has carved a niche for themselves, it seems, and often despite the shenanigans of importers. Miraphone has never really made a dominant F tuba, and B&S did. Hirsbrunner has never owned the Bb market the way Miraphone did, despite making one of the great Bb kaiser tubas—maybe the ultimate “step-up” Bb tuba in the last century. But for a good decade Hirsbrunner owned the grand orchestral tuba market. But these niches started to fade a bit as the exclusive importer arrangements lost control.

Now, Miraphone is (brilliantly, in my view, with their commitment to craft and service) shifting focus to step-up instruments for well-heeled amateurs as much as anything, and ceding the schoolkid market to Chinese price-point brands. Baadsvik notwithstanding, they still aren’t cracking the orchestra market, except as a tuba orchestra pros might use for outside gigs. But even those are rarely new Miraphones.

Some of this might even be correct.

Rick “Miraphone is doing what the American companies could not do” Denney

[LeMark]

It's funny that outside of a couple hirsbrunners, the Conn 3J, and maybe the kalison later in the decade, piston CC tubas were very rare when I went to college in the 80's

[DonO.]

It's funny that outside of a couple hirsbrunners, the Conn 3J, and maybe the kalison later in the decade, piston CC tubas were very rare when I went to college in the 80's

Hirsbrunners were the first ones I remember seeing.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[jtm]

I got through high school and college (late 70s to mid 80s) -- in Texas, even -- without being reached by any tuba propaganda at all. I knew King and Conn as names stamped on the sousaphones I played, and various other brands (Yamaha, Holton, Bach, Selmer, Buffet) from kids in the rest of the band that cared about what they were playing. Maybe part of it was that all my instruments were school owned, even through college, so I wasn't shopping or hoping to shop.

I don't remember anything about Miraphone or Mirafone. My one bit of concert tuba playing was a college semester of tuba/euphonium ensemble class, for which I was issued a BBb rotary tuba, along with several other guys, and I didn't pay much attention to it. Later (like 30 years later) I found out they were probably BBb 186s. Shouldn't be surprised, I guess, since it was in Texas.

@Rick Denney, thanks for adding some historical context for my 1965 BBb 186 (with many many years in Arizona schools) and my early 80s 188. I feel a little bad that I didn't know about 188s when I was in college and they were fresh.

[bloke]

The one Swiss tuba (used/like new) that I bought was a one-year mistake - as far as something to play, but - having sold it for a thousand more than I paid for it - not a financial one.

The one other-maker Swiss tuba that I borrowed for quite a few months was probably also a mistake, because it really caused me to play with a lot of tension, but (maybe...??) no more than with the other Swiss one referred to in the previous paragraph.

One Rudy tuba that I bought (used/new condition/crazy cheap) was a terrible mistake, but another one (sold to someone who's probably reading this thread today) was a really fun outing, also a bargain, but I'm vested quite a few hours in bringing it up to the level of - arguably - "an exceptional example of that model".

I'm not sure that trading a really out of tune (bought new) Miraphone 86 - which was a mistake - for a really beat-up Alex was a mistake, but allowing some hacks to work on it was a huge mistake, as they ruined that Alex. Buying an early (new) gold brass 88 was a big mistake. That instrument was a lemon, offered poor response, and had a second valve which I just couldn't make reliable. I think it's sort of funny that the two Miraphone tubas that I (both of them) bought brand new were the two worst ones I've ever played in my entire life up to this point, and I know I'm not exaggerating or imagining. I've played some really wonderful - and owned some really wonderful 86s, and played some wonderful 88s. I got particularly good deals on that out of tune 86 and that bad-playing 88 with the bad second valve, which makes me think that the sellers knew they were lemons. ...I was a dumb kid.

Miraphone - since that time - has come out with extraordinary number of models, they haven't been sucked into the "Orca-phone" (intentional pun) thing, and - just as with other makers - some of their models really hit and others sort of missed, but as a New York area salesman and repairman says, "Every tuba has someone's name on it"...I love the company, the people, the workmanship, love certain ones of their models, and I haven't even played all of their models. Someone else is welcome to their F tubas, as Rick tactfully suggested.

[Rick Denney]

I got through high school and college (late 70s to mid 80s) -- in Texas, even -- without being reached by any tuba propaganda at all. I knew King and Conn as names stamped on the sousaphones I played, and various other brands (Yamaha, Holton, Bach, Selmer, Buffet) from kids in the rest of the band that cared about what they were playing. Maybe part of it was that all my instruments were school owned, even through college, so I wasn't shopping or hoping to shop.

I don't remember anything about Miraphone or Mirafone. My one bit of concert tuba playing was a college semester of tuba/euphonium ensemble class, for which I was issued a BBb rotary tuba, along with several other guys, and I didn't pay much attention to it. Later (like 30 years later) I found out they were probably BBb 186s. Shouldn't be surprised, I guess, since it was in Texas.

@Rick Denney, thanks for adding some historical context for my 1965 BBb 186 (with many many years in Arizona schools) and my early 80s 188. I feel a little bad that I didn't know about 188s when I was in college and they were fresh.

That’s funny. In Houston, Miraphone was the only German tuba brand I knew by name while in school in Houston. I knew of King and Conn, and I played a Besson in the all-city band. I also borrowed a Bach for a while and wondered who made them. But up until I my college hiatus, all rotary tubas were Miraphones in my mind.

Bill Rose was the symphony player in Houston in those days (and had been for decades, until 1977 when he retired and passed the job to Warren Deck), so the local colleges that used him as an instructor all had a strong Miraphone influence. When my band director borrowed a tuba from Rice for me to use in my senior year, it was a Miraphone and I was proud but still didn’t fully appreciate that opportunity. That was the first time I played an instrument with a fourth valve.

I’d be curious to know when Rose first started playing a Miraphone, and what he played prior to that time.

In 1982, we took visiting relatives of my new brother-in-law to the Bavarian Gardens to hear Alpenfest, with its founding tuba player Mike Barker (RIP) and he and I chatted. He played a Miraphone and that was an automatic choice for him, having learned to play tuba in Texas in the 60’s and early 70’s. When I started playing again in 1984, the instrument I lusted for but could not afford was a Miraphone.

If there was Miraphone hate in Houston in the 70’s, it was hiding pretty well.

Rick “couldn’t afford private lessons and sadly never knew Bill Rose” Denney

[bisontuba]

I do wonder that if a certain European manufacturer didn't silver plate all their instruments that a store imported here in the U.S., if their popularity would have been as great, and if they might have known with just lacquer instruments as the 'Chevrolet' of tubas ...

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

I've revealed here several times that all we played (at my un-conditioned, no toilet paper, two bedroom/no carport neighborhood high school) were Conn 36k fiberglass sousaphones, but someone must have figured out (maybe a local music store, or maybe someone else...??) that - every single year - one of us ended up sitting in the principal chair in the all-state band, because some of those Meinl-Weston one page black and white price lists (with Boehm & Meinl also on the bottom of that page) - and even that skinny color pamphlet with a picture on the front of an extremely aged Bill Bell - made it to our band room, somehow. I knew about Meinl-Weston tubas, but had never seen any. I also remember looking at their diagrams of how to switch slides back and forth on their C tuba (supposedly to convert it from a C tuba back to a B flat tuba -or something like that), but I didn't even realize that they were pictures of a C tuba, so I didn't get what they were trying to demonstrate in their rhetoric and pictures. I did know about Miraphone tubas. I've been over to the university and seen them standing up in cages. >> Now, I'm going to have to correct myself and am remembering that I also saw a couple of Meinl-Weston 20s standing up in cages as well over there. I guess I was exposed to stuff, but didn't have any first-hand experience with it. I also recall some of those communist-era East German B&S "Gerhard Schneider" tubas being on display at all-state in the 12th grade, but I didn't even pick them up and play them. None of us ever had any private instruction, so there wasn't anyone to show us fancy tubas or tell us about them. Additionally, I really wasn't much into tuba - even in the 12th grade. The all-state band was an interesting distraction (along with a noticeably better sounding band) to avoid going to class. I was a guitar player (practicing playing the guitar three to five hours a day) and tuba was "a class at school". Even electric bass was "a class at school". ...Think about it: Had I played something like the clarinet or the trumpet, I would have actually had to practice that music, and it would have taken time away from practicing the guitar.

[arpthark]

I am 30 years younger than bloke, but I never encountered much blatant Mira-hate. They didn't really have much of a presence in Kentucky. More Mir-atheist than anything. Being close to that place in the upper Midwest, I am assuming that trickled down for the college-bound crowd (I owned a couple, but none of the "British luxury car" marque). Most high school bands that I remember paying attention to had either Yamahas or Kings.

[Rick Denney]

I do wonder that if a certain European manufacturer didn't silver plate all their instruments that a store imported here in the U.S., if their popularity would have been as great, and if they might have known with just lacquer instruments as the 'Chevrolet' of tubas ...

If you’re talking about Hirsbrunner, no. They’ve made some bad choices over the years—choices that made sense in chilly northern Switzerland and Germany, but not in hot southern America. (E.G. Plastic-core valves.) But their craft has always been exceptionally good where it’s hard to see. Reports I’ve read of their disassembly have remarked on fully tinned solder joints, etc., independently of whatever the person thought of the instrument’s playing qualities. This was at a time when European tubas were just about the only tubas, and ran the gamut from exceptional to acceptable.

The Swiss are meticulous in manufacturing as a matter of cultural heritage and pride.

I liken Hirsbrunner tubas to Alpa cameras. You’ve never heard of Alpa, and were it not for Fred Marrich (and/or) the Yorkbrunner you might never have heard of Hirsbrunner, either. But Alpa cameras (all of which are now vintage film models given that Alpa is long gone) have a devoted fan base because they are beautifully made and interestingly quirky. The same could be said of Sinar and Arca-Swiss cameras, which are examples of superb manufacturing and function. When I switched from a solidly Belgian-made Cambo large-format view camera to a Sinar, the accompaniment of angelic choirs came with.

But decorated with massive engravings and detail, Hirsbrunner is not.

Rick “Chevrolet is ‘popular’” Denney

[bloke]

I'm wondering if Hb ever made any of their own valves.

Didn't the place that bought their tooling end up also buying a valve-making firm?

[Rick Denney]

Dunno. Interesting about the tooling. My recollection is that Hirsbrunner, with Custom’s prompting and flush with Yorkbrunner success, updated their manufacturing methods to scale production up from the prior labor-intensive hand processes. And Adams bought those machines. But I believe that Hirsbrunner still makes their hand-made tubas one at a time like they have done for generations. I do not know if Herr Hirsbrunner has a successor, however. Last I looked on Google Maps, he still had the workshop behind his house.

Rick “the post-war maker generation’s sons are aging out, and grandsons often have other ideas” Denney

[bloke]

' restraining myself from expressing "Brunner-hate", but feelin' it.

yup.png (4.44 KiB) Viewed 1630 times

[Yorkboy]

My last correspondence with Peter Hirsbrunner (buying parts) was in 2019, and at that time he informed me that he was retiring from instrument manufacture. Herr Hirsbrunner struck me as being a very upstanding, kind and helpful gentleman (“on the level”, as my generation used to say), so I have no reason to suspect that this is not true. If he had a successor to his business, he didn’t mention it or even imply it.

He also told me he would occasionally source valvesets from other (highest-quality-impeccably-made-GERMAN) manufacturers (as I suspect many European instrument builders do).

[Mikelynch]

Finally responding to Rick's post as to Bill Rose's pre-Mirafone equipment...

While in NYC (before Houston), he had looked for a CC tuba (which was not that easy to find in the late 40's), and finally found a Sanders in the basement of a hair salon (though all strings on the valves were broken, and about all he could do was get the valves somewhere close to a "closed" position and play an open series). That was the horn he played in NYC, and then once he came down to Houston, for many years. [aside: In Houston, he followed Joe Novotny, who spent one year there] While in NYC, he had a tuning slide crook made with a slide in it to allow tuning down to the pitch of an organ at one location where he played frequently).

That Sanders had a 2-3 4th valve (which was strongly preferred by Fred Geib,* who had imported many of the Sanders tubas into the country pre-WWW II). So Mr. Rose, not only never had a 5-valve tuba, he always cut a half-step off the 4th of every tuba he got after the Sanders.

I'm not sure of the exact timing, but he got an Alexander (I'm sure, a 163), but was not willing to deal with the intonation issues and shortly sent it back. Mr. Rose was not one for slide adjustment. On his quintet 186 (below), he secured the 1st slide in position with a strong metallic tape. :-)

Somewhere around '61-'62 (I believe) he tried a 186 and was delighted (these were before the outer slide tubes were nickel silver). Sometime not too many years before I started taking lessons with him in '65 he had gotten the Holton CC. I recall him expressing that he would like to play the Holton more than he did, but (as I recall) Previn (67-69) was not a fan of the bigger sound. [This is a time I wish 14 year old me had asked more questions, and committed more to long term memory].

After retiring from the HSO in '77 he thought highly of the St. Petersburg tubas, and developed a mouthpiece for them.

To my knowledge, he never owned an F tuba (and if he did, it was fleeting, as I never saw or heard of it), and played almost everything on one of his 186s. :-) When I started with him, he played on a Bach 7, or sometimes a 12. He later developed the Rose Orchestral mp with Mirafone. His only concession to playing in the high range was developing the Rose Solo mp, primarily prompted, he said, by the solo line in Tubby.

One of his 186s was damaged early after he got it, and he sent it back to Mirafone for repair. As it ended up, the leadpipe was replaced with one from a 185, which played so well, though with a slightly more compact sound, that it became his favorite quintet tuba.

In the 60's to 70's many (most?) of his students, including me, bought 186's through him. I believe the cost through him in 1966, was $640, with the wooden case.

*Geib eventually made some acknowledgment to the merits of a P4th valve. Both his famous rotary Conn CC (Geib/?/Lind/Deck), and a later 5 piston King (from his Radio City Music Hall days) have a M3 4th valve, but a P4th 5th valve.

[jtm]

...
I'm not sure of the exact timing, but he got an Alexander (I'm sure, a 163), but was not willing to deal with the intonation issues and shortly sent it back. Mr. Rose was not one for slide adjustment. On his quintet 186 (below), he secured the 1st slide in position with a strong metallic tape. :-)
...

Because it just moved too freely otherwise?

In the 60's to 70's many (most?) of his students, including me, bought 186's through him.

Did you end up with one of the good ones?

[Mikelynch]

Place your bet, John! I’ll let you know at rehearsal Monday.