like a rock

[bloke]

I've been looking at resale prices of European-made yorkophones. If someone's willing to face reality and admit that - over the last 3 years - the value of the US dollar has basically dropped by 50% (certainly on things that most people buy most all the time), that - combined with the fact that the Buffet company is now selling wholesale to the public direct - apparently, to try to compete with China (and Chinese stuff plays no worse out of tune than European stuff), when someone advertises a used central European-made yorkophone for $17000 bucks, that means their asking price is about the same as a pre-election asking price about $8,500.

Explain where I'm wrong...and - whether or not someone successfully explains to me what's wrong with the previous run-on-sentences paragraph's content - I'm thankful that I didn't buy a European-made yorkophone - either new or used - four years ago.

I realize that there aren't as many of these as the others, but neither am I seeing the Japan-made ones being offered for lower prices, and nor - really - am I seeing them being offered for sale at all.

[donn]

$1 2020 is $1.18 2023. Same cost of a $17,000 item in 2020 would be $14,406.

[BramJ]

Inflation isn't a US thing only, it's crap all over the world

[matt g]

$1 2020 is $1.18 2023. Same cost of a $17,000 item in 2020 would be $14,406.

Seems like you flipped the script, as it were.

$17,000 tuba in 2020
$20,060 tuba in 2023

If this is in reference to the recent Nirschl York copy, I think this is a deal. Those horns, for better or worse, are pretty faithful clones of the original York and are completely handmade. A Yamaha would cost nearly double, even used. Granted, maybe Yamaha has made some modifications to the bugle for the sake of acoustics and intonation, but whatever.

My salary has almost kept up with inflation, which would be fine if it weren’t for me having to gain promotions (and inherent high level responsibilities) to do so.

[bloke]

I pay no attention to talking heads spewing out nonsensically low inflation rates, but instead pay attention to actual prices I'm paying on almost everything I buy. Talking head inflation rate formulas mix in a bunch of gobbledygook which greatly distorts and lowers the number until those who control and employ talking heads believe it appears palatable for consumption by the masses. One difficulty that we have communicating in America is that there's a cult-like of people who live in narrativeville, another group who live in realville, and it's impossible for those two groups to communicate. Also, I'm well aware of that inflation is worldwide. I'm not going to get into the causes, because that distracts from the topic even farther, and would require me to point out a few more realities which are even more bleak - I just don't want to get into any silly back-and-forth with the handful of narrativeville people, here.

I'd like to get back on the main topic, which is the much lower resale price of these European high end tubas.

It's not just one of them. Over the last few months I've seen several of them advertised for only a few thousand more than the new Chinese prices on similar-looking instruments, and they're not selling quickly at those prices.

[TheHatTuba]

If I understand correctly:
- donn did the numbers right
- bloke isn't commenting whether 17k now is a good/bad deal, rather saying that buying a yorkophone a few years ago (pick a price) sucks in hindsight due to their selling cost now giving you much less buying power vs then

[matt g]

- donn did the numbers right

It’s a bit awkward to read.

- bloke isn't commenting whether 17k now is a good/bad deal, rather saying that buying a yorkophone a few years ago (pick a price) sucks in hindsight due to their selling cost now giving you much less buying power vs then

Buying a 6/4 horn new, along with just about any tuba, has always been a great way to lose money. However, the market doesn’t always have what you want used.

I dunno what a Nirschl costs new nowadays, but the one listed here seems fairly priced.

Buying and selling with motives of profit seems to work best with saxophones and guitars. Probably a common reason there.

But yes, inflation decreases buying power. If only we could put used tubas in the “basket of goods” to derive the rate of inflation, then maybe inflation would be lower and we would all feel better about things!

[bloke]

If I understand correctly:
- donn did the numbers right
- bloke isn't commenting whether 17k now is a good/bad deal, rather saying that buying a yorkophone a few years ago (pick a price) sucks in hindsight due to their selling cost now giving you much less buying power vs then

Absolutely...
If someone bought one of those before the dollar's value precipitously halved - and back when Buffet sold wholesale to dealers (rather than wholesale to the public), and maybe even before the market was flooded with $7500 - $11000 Chinese look-alikes (whether-or-not any of them are play-alikes), those people - if wishing to cash out - aren't in a particularly good position, now.

[donn]

It’s a bit awkward to read.

I'll give you that.

Buying a 6/4 horn new, along with just about any tuba, has always been a great way to lose money. However, the market doesn’t always have what you want used.

Yes. Someone who's into paying that kind of big bucks for a tuba, and gets one and it turns out to be everything he hoped for, that tuba player is to be envied.

Paying more than you can really afford, or paying a lot for a tuba that doesn't really work out, that's to be avoided. There sure are people who buy and sell their tubas with surprising regularity, and that's OK if they're having fun, but it isn't mandatory.

[bloke]

Just to be clear...
I'm not referring to any particular offering.
As I said, I'm seeing a downward TREND in the pricing of this stuff.

tubaforum:
I really appreciate you folks looking at my ads, here and buying my stuff...but (actually) I don't look at these ads much - because I'm not really looking to buy anything, right now...
On FB, I see ads - even though I don't go to the ad pages...They show up on my timeline (as - although there are individual pages - FB is not separated out into "forums".)

[Matthew Gaunt]

I've been looking at resale prices of European-made yorkophones. If someone's willing to face reality and admit that - over the last 3 years - the value of the US dollar has basically dropped by 50% (certainly on things that most people buy most all the time), that - combined with the fact that the Buffet company is now selling wholesale to the public direct - apparently, to try to compete with China (and Chinese stuff plays no worse out of tune than European stuff), when someone advertises a used central European-made yorkophone for $17000 bucks, that means their asking price is about the same as a pre-election asking price about $8,500.

I have yet to play a Chinese tuba that plays as well in tune as this one. For me it plays more in tune than many smaller cc tubas as well. Open e and e flat are actually a bit sharp instead of flat!

[bloke]

@Matthew Gaunt

' wasn't referring to any particular sale or offering. I'm talking about seeing several of these over the last few months. In the past, when money was worth more they were being offered for prices like 22,000, and now I'm seeing asking prices like $16,000 or so.

Even were I referring to a specific offering or even if I were specifically referring an offering of yours. I'm not saying anything negative, because - with money worth half as much and the prices being lower too - all that says is that the prices on these things are very low. I don't see how noticing that prices are lower damages potential sellers in any way.

Buffet/M-W has come out with three or four versions of these, Walter Nirschl has their version, and there's also the Hirsbrunner/Adams version. I don't know if I'm leaving any out...

Also, please reread and note that I made no positive nor negative comments regarding those that are made in Asia, other than the one made in Japan - the one that we virtually never see offered for sale used.

Again, I mostly run into these ads on facebook, and not here. Repeating something else, I'm not checking ads, but they come up in my feed on facebook. I'm neither seeking out nor surveying these ads.

Political posts on tuba discussion lists really aren't the ones where people reveal whether they are left or right or Republican or Democrat. Rather they are the ones where frank observations are made about models, playability, and pricing.

[kingrob76]

I think the downward trends you are seeing is market pressure more than anything else.

For example, I once played a 6450/2 that was perfect for me, and a 6/4 Adams I tried out once just amazing in an elephant room, but if I can buy 90-95% of that for 50-60% of the cost of either of those instruments then those two instruments are crossed off my list. I don't generate any significant revenue from my playing at this point and I can't devote 3-4 hours a day to practicing. If I was generating my living then I would probably view this differently.

Instrument makers are seeing my demographic along with the degree-seeking demographic and understanding better where and why we will shop for something. I think that pricing is an effort to get back into the consideration game and not just be boutique shops for professionals (which is tough to do in the tuba world).

[peterbas]

.

[bloke]

I have some stuff, but (guessing) I don't own nearly as many tools/gadgets as do some people who (guessing) turn out less work.

- I'm sure I'm not the most productive.
- I'm sure there are people who've spent even less on tools than have I.

(I'm thinking that I do quite a bit of stuff with a little hammer and with my hands.)

I'm not getting the analogy, though...(??)

============================================
ok...moving on (to stuff I understand)...addressing Rob's response.

The market pressure is surely a factor. Buffet - which builds these things - now wholesales to the public, while tons of people (in particular, tons of people who post "I'm selling my 4/4 tuba to buy a 6/4 grande orchestralle, because - now that I'm a second-year college student - I've outgrown my 4/4) who buy the Chino-6/4's really can't tell the difference (and no offense intended towards anyone).

THIS, while (again: simultaneous) the value of paper money has fallen to not much more than the value of toilet paper (which defines that these instruments - with their price drops - as EVEN LESS expensive: [1] lower price [2] money being worth less
...I just don't know how to say the same things in any more different or clearer ways (??) ...and it's just "how things are"...I'm not attempting to imply anything beyond that...though someone smarter than me (and there are plenty of those, here) might be seeing a point that I'm not seeing myself nor trying to point out.

me...??
I've played most all of the models (including the CSO York - long ago, in the Michigan Ave. dressing room - and the Floyd-owned Nirschl (actually had plenty of cash-money in my pocket to buy it - when he was pretending that it wasn't for sale, when he took it to IU several years ago...liked it better than the new one that Walter had there - with a Brazilian valveset - but didn't like it well enough to buy it...but Floyd's was just about the best Nirschl I've played)... I've even sat up in the mezzanine and listened to Gene play a bunch of excerpts (York vs. Yamaha) back-to-back...
...so is the Yamaha worth tens of thousands more than most all the others?
again: I'm not in the market and would only buy one as a bottom-feeder (to flip), but yes: I would say that the Yamaha is worth significantly more than any of the rest...It's the only one I've played whereby I wasn't distracted by the instrument (neither response nor tuning - even though those ALL of those 6/4 C things - original and all the knockoffs - are really goofy to hold and play, due to their crazy-short mouthpipe tubes), and could (when playing Yamaha's) simply concentrate on listening to the sound that was being produced.

me:
lazy. I don't like feeling tired after playing a tuba

good tubas:
beckon me. When I walk past them, I want to pick them up and make sounds with them...Those are the types which are here in this room.

[bloke]

How much of the new tuba market really is just college kids? Probably the vast majority.

[bloke]

How much of the new tuba market really is just college kids? Probably the vast majority.

yes...the Eastex/Westman "I prefer silver" crowd...

but if (??) a Nirschl/Meinl-Weston/Hirsbadams is actually better than an Eastex or Westman, the price gap (comparing new to new and certainly used to new) between Euro and Chino is closing down, yes?

bloke "AGAIN, THIS STUFF RIGHT HERE is ACTUALLY the 'POLITICAL topics' of these forums. Right-left/Democrat-Republican...?? That stuff is a bunch of bull$h!t...ALL of those people want ALL of our stuff/money, and truly wish we were dead...but getting down to the nitty-gritty and discussing what __ make and __ model of tuba is worth - PRICE-wise - and how GOOD it is...THAT THERE mess is going to ruffle feathers."

[bloke]

Agreed that B&S/MW needs to keep its brand relevant as Eastman and others go after that market.

[TheHatTuba]

Agreed that B&S/MW needs to keep its brand relevant as Eastman and others go after that market.

Maybe another horn with the same 3 loop CC bugle + copy paste piston set will widen the gap.

[peterbas]

.