Meistersinger on F

[russiantuba]

I did an audition for a full time orchestral position today after being off the circuit and did something a bit odd. I played Meistersinger on F tuba. They only asked for the Soli section (J-L), which my teacher told me F tuba (he is someone who never played f much with his full time symphony job and is a huge proponent of the big horn).

Some benefits of it being on F:

Clearer sound and attacks. Though the tuba is part of the bass section, the clarity of sound actually helps it blend better. Also, going to the upper E has better volume control.

Better marcatos. I felt in the room, I didn’t have to push it, allowing me to focus on other stuff than the attack.

Better dynamics. One element of this excerpt is about when to give more when it’s marked. I was able to do so.

Oh yeah, the trill is so much easier.

Try it sometime!

[bloke]

would never consider otherwise, and wouldn't play with two instruments, either.

I've been thinking a lot more about quitting than auditioning, though.

[russiantuba]

would never consider otherwise, and wouldn't play with two instruments, either.

Chicago, Cincinnati, etc. produce great recordings of this work done on the big horn and with the limited assortment of F tubas, and “my teacher said I must do everything like Jacobs”, we do it on CC and don’t question.

I wouldn’t switch horns in it. The last audition I took, which was many years ago (due to my focus in academia and other stuff), released the list, and then revised Meistersinger to state “Perform on C tuba”.

[arpthark]

Learned it on F, would play it on F. If someone took Wagner's score and showed it to someone knowledgeable about instrumentation but who has no prior orchestral tuba instruction, and ask if it is a contrabass or bass tuba excerpt based on tessitura and orchestration alone, I think the answer would be pretty obvious.

[BopEuph]

As stupid as this sounds, I feel like, as a euph convert with only a BBb that's good for the orchestra, I've felt I could get more bang-for-the-buck if I had a Willson 2975 euphonium, which would look like a small Eb tuba, and very little practice, and win some local regional gigs with very little effort.

For what orchestra gigs pay, I don't really feel like I want to do things "right." Too much competition to stay with what's the "status quo" of orchestra players. Maybe something a little more radical that I could much more easily wrap my own chops around would better keep me in the game.

Or I could just keep doing commercial gigs. Less rehearsals, less work, more pay per gig.

[Sousaswag]

I’ve always done it on F: I don’t subscribe to the “if Jacobs did it this way that’s the only way” mentality. F makes a LOT of things easier and this particular excerpt is a good example.

[bloke]

The only tuba parts that Wagner wrote for contrabass were the Ring cycle operas...and those were written for B-flat contrabass (at least, according to stuff that I've read written by people who've read stuff that seems to be legit...and I don't believe J. W. York & Sons was in bidnuss during that time, and probably not exporting to Bayreuth.)

a continental European orchestra performance of the Meistersinger overture (a piece written in continental Europe)
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=123135561358288


Ring cycle instrumentation of Die Walküre: (two bass tubas - specified in F) and - of course - a contrabass tuba:



Whenever Wagner wrote "tuba", that meant bass tuba (and probably not "compensating E-flat with a 19-inch bell pointing back into the pit"...but whatever).






Even though "way back then", I can't think of another composer - scoring for tuba - who was more specific, regarding just what type of tuba was to be used to play specific parts.

from the past:
"[the royal] 'We' don't use mutes on Ein Heldenleben, because 'we' are the C.S.O." (An American orchestra tuba player using a tuba not used where the piece was composed: Munich/Berlin, and - then - going on to ignore the mute instructions is just so much b.s. - regardless of stature/reputation/etc.)
others who follow along "because the C.S.O." - lemmings

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

...revised Meistersinger to state “Perform on C tuba”.

I have a mouthpiece that makes my F tuba (with a vintage 186-sized bell) sound like a 186 C...just discussed in another forum/thread...
...but I wouldn't do that, either, when playing that piece...It's sort of the same thing - sonically - as sticking 19-inch bells on compensating E-flat tubas which were designed to accept 15-inch bells.

bloke "dullsville"

[jtuba]

..Meistersinger to state “Perform on C tuba”.

This was the case for the most recent St Louis audition

[bloke]

plain ig'nunt and/or intentionally wrong...or "redneck wrong".
ie. "It sounds too good, and it's too easy to play on the correct instrument."

I remember auditioning (decades ago), and was the first person for the whole damn day.

The first piece on the docket - of all things - was the "Ride of your Life". It was the edition marked "forte" and later marked "fortissimo".
I played the "fortissimo" very loudly - to make a definite contrast (as there's another edition - in most of those old audition books that orchestras own - which is marked "balls-to-the-wall" all the way through). Some redneck on the committee (likely, the bass trombone operator) asked for the "fortissimo" part to be played again - louder.
I said (out loud) "No.", walked out, got in my car, and headed home.
Having been self-employed my entire life, I'm don't have much tolerance for idiots...and certainly not (whether-or-not for a paycheck) day-in/day-out.

ALL OF THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...
Whenever I've brought some unusual size/config. of tuba to an orchestra rehearsal, to date NO music director has EVER said ANYTHING - from helicon to recording bass to euphonium (including SWITCHING TO euphonium in the middle of some horribly-written arrangement) to sousaphone. I'm CERTAIN they would have had I played sharp/flat/too-fast/too-slow/too-loud/too-soft. (They're always telling us to look up, but they look out just about as often as we look up.)

[jtm]

...revised Meistersinger to state “Perform on C tuba”.

I have a mouthpiece that makes my F tuba (with a vintage 186-sized bell) sound like a 186 C...just discussed in another forum/thread...
...but I wouldn't do that, either, when playing that piece...It's sort of the same thing - sonically - as sticking 19-inch bells on compensating E-flat tubas which were designed to accept 15-inch bells.

bloke "dullsville"

Which mouthpiece is that (missed the other discussion)? And then which mouthpiece do you actually like and use on your vintage F tuba with vintage 186-sized bell?

[bloke]

Which mouthpiece is that (missed the other discussion)? And then which mouthpiece do you actually like and use on your vintage F tuba with vintage 186-sized bell?

I use a not-deep mouthpiece with a not-large throat with that instrument - 99% of the time. (Though shallow and with a not-large throat, it's deeper and larger-throated than the new "Shallowberger" thing.)
When I want to be noticed less (or decide to use it at commencements/funerals/etc. where transcriptions of large ensemble works are played (and I don't want to bring a contrabass tuba), I'll put an Imperial mpc. in the case with the F tuba. If I want to knock off all the rest of the highs (but still be able to play the F tuba in tune) I'll use the prototype for that "Sellmansberg II" thing.

When I posted that video of the last part of the Organ Symphony (to demonstrate that "bigger is not always better, and bigger doesn't always produce the most nor the most audible sound), that was my 99% mouthpiece with the F tuba.

This was a "covid" show...only two 1 hour rehearsals...Every time I've been hired to play this Symphony, (oddly) it's been done (various circumstances) with minimum rehearsal. (This was posted here months ago - in another thread about "using the F tuba".)

oh yeah...This is one of those "troublesome low C/German F tubas"...which is why I chose to using on a friggin' loud symphony in C minor.




LAST OFF-TOPIC DETOUR...

Speaking of "the music director not really noticing when an odd instrument is brought in"...
Here's Schubert 9 (finale) with the ORIGINALLY-INTENDED instruments...an E-flat trombone, a B-flat trombone and an F trombone.
THE funny thing about THIS one:
When my friend posted it on a trombone page on FB, all the bass trombone players were "triggered" (pun) because they knew that a TUBA player was working the gig and NOT a bass trombone player.
...and the "matched instruments" theorum: Conn/Thein/homemade

[UncleBeer]

Even though "way back then", I can't think of another composer - scoring for tuba - who was more specific, regarding just what type of tuba was to be used to play specific parts.

Bruckner was pretty specific as well.

[Mary Ann]

you know, I just HAVE to say this. I would have zero problem playing Mestersinger including the high c-d-e on the Nirschl, as long as I had somebody to set it on the stand for me.
(When I did do it quite a few years ago it was on a 184, also no problem with those notes.) Since my other option now is an Eb, the C would be easier. Back then I had the MW 182 F and I could not, and probably still could not, get out anything decent below the staff.

[bloke]

... and I could play it on my old King sousaphone I just fixed up, but I wouldn't, and it's not because of the way it looks.

minutia:
As far as the trill with the bassoons is concerned (over which so many tuba players wring their hands - just as so many do when attempting to blow a low C on an F tuba in the same manner in which they would blow it on a contrabass tuba) as Wagner was really knowledgeable about all these different instruments that he used in his pieces, I'm sure he knew how effortless that trill is - played on a tuba pitched in F.

[arpthark]

I learned that trill as a lip trill on C. Works way better as a valve trill on F.

[bloke]

I learned that trill as a lip trill on C. Works way better as a valve trill on F.

Same here. Probably a decade ago I finally sat down and taught myself how to do lip trills. They require a considerable amount of concentration and maintenance. When played on F tuba - as intended, I'm not anticipating the trill, because it's neither difficult, or demanding of additional concentration. I don't believe most composers necessarily want things to be difficult for instrumentalists. Rather, I suspect that they just want what they've written to sound.

Again, playing that piece on a C length tuba is a very American/provincial thing. It's one thing to cover a serpent part with an F tuba or a euphonium - as almost no one is a master of the serpent anymore and almost no one owns one, but it's quite another thing for the instrumentation to specify a modern instrument, and to ignore it. Stravinsky wrote an English horn passage at the beginning of Rite of Spring for the bassoon - to intentionally make it sound crude and difficult, but bassoonists (due to their own natural egos - and not wanting to sound as if they are struggling) eventually overcame that. Wagner didn't write the tuba part in that Overture for contrabass tuba, as he didn't intend for it to sound crude or difficult, but tuba players in the United States have decided to use a contrabass tuba and work past the difficult obstacles - as have bassoonists when playing Rite of Spring. I suppose us working to overcome an obstacle for the sake of it can be defined as admirable, but - in this case -unnecessary, and it's time that we could have spent pursuing other goals and doing other tasks. Not only is the trill awkward when played on a C contrabass tuba, but the entire excerpt - later in the piece - puts demands on air supply which affects connectivity of the phrasing as well, when playing a large tuba - demands which don't exist when playing the specified instrument.

[The Brute Squad]

as he didn't intend for it to sound crude or difficult

Nor did he write it to be a solo, though you wouldn't know it the way some play that part.

[tclements]

When I do this, I use 2 tubas. I use CC on the beginning, and F on the 'bass soli.' I like the depth and breadth of the large tuba at the start, and I find I can balance and blend better with basses at "J," on F. I have never had a conductor notice what I was doing anyway, and only once, did the maestro say, "Tuba, you can play out a bit more there."

my 2¢

tc