Mouthpiece question.

[Thom]

My understanding is that the Bach 24AW or equivalent is the most common size mouthpiece. Correct me if I am wrong. I have found that when I played a Bach 18 or 14D size mouthpiece on the tenor trombone it was less taxing and took less airflow than a larger mouthpiece. Does anyone have thoughts about the Bach 25 or 30E on a 3/4 smaller tuba? Just looking for some input and possible suggestions. Someone talked me into, ”Bigger is Better”, and I got a Bach 7GP. I seem to be breathy and cannot play phrases longer than two measures without a breath. I have been out of practice for over 13 years, I understand I need to work on phrasing more, but I was just thinking a smaller mouthpiece might be easier until I get my chops back? I have tried an 18 and 22 as well, they seemed better, but I guess I just need to try a 25 and see how it works for me?

[Tubeast]

Don´t be fooled by mouthpiece descriptions and look at spec sheets to see if what it says in prose lines up with measurements.

The 24AW has a bore of 8.84mm as its smallest diameter and a 31.25 mm rim.
The 7G has a bore of 8.33mm and a 33.25 mm rim.
(At least that´s what an online-catalogue told me)

While the bore will effect the amount of air flow to a great extent, the rim diameter MIGHT do so only as far as accessible lip aperture is concerned, the size of which should be under your control regardless of rim diameter.

None of the of the MP-models You mention strike me as being particularly large.
My suggestion would be for You to try and breathe more rigorously / effectively and just get used to the MPs you got.
The point being: YOU control what goes into your horn, not the mouthpiece.

Disclaimer: What I wrote only adresses the "amount of air"-part of your concerns.
The tone colour achievable with any combination of mouthpieces and tubas is a totally different story.

[arpthark]

30E is very, very small, even smaller than most F tuba mouthpieces. Your air support may get better, but you may find that that is at the expense of tone quality with a BBb tuba.

The 24AW is weird, in that it has a very narrow cup diameter, a big cushiony rim, a deep cup, and an outsized large backbore. I find them really odd to play, but some folks like them and some professionals sound damn good on them. They are more popular in the UK, from what I've heard.

My advice would be to start your search with middle-of-the-road, inexpensive mouthpieces that are on the slightly smaller side, like a Bach 18 or a Conn Helleberg 7B. These frequently pop up used on eBay and on this forum and won't break the bank.

Your Bach 7 has a 33.25mm cup diameter which is very large. I would consider myself a "strong player" with large lips, but I have found very large diameter mouthpieces to be really taxing. The Bach 18 or the Helleberg 7B are more conservatively sized and may be better for your endurance and air support.

[bort2.0]

Conn Helleberg or Bach 18 are about as regular as it gets. I think the bore of the 24AW is too big, and I dislike the rim as well. The Bach 7 is a really big mouthpiece, and I wouldn't gravitate to that for a 3/4 tuba. I'm sure it could work, but it'll take a really strong embouchure and a lot of air... and would a smaller bore tuba do well with that? Otherwise, the 18, 22, or 25 are all fine. Don't overthink it, just pick the one you like the best for now, decide that in like a minute or two, and put the others away. Change one variable at a time... you will improve faster than you think as you get used to the tuba and mouthpiece combo. As I like to say, it's all about learning "do this, to sound like that." You KNOW what it's supposed to sound like! :)

Play more often, practice long tones and scales (yes, the boring stuff!), and make sure you get enough exercise as well. For example, if you get winded from walking up a few flights of stairs, you might benefit from some cardio to build up your strength.

About 16 months ago, I had COVID and was recently recovered before a concert. It greatly diminished my lung capacity and breathing, it was like half of what I was used to. That's way in the past now and I'm all better... but more playing, boring playing, and exercise got me back in shape.

Have fun. 13 years is a long time, but I mean that in the sense of it has GOT to feel good to play again.

[Thom]

I thank you all for your insights, they are most helpful. Yes, I am definitely overthinking everything. I think the main problem I have is not so much equipment, I think it is silly pride. I played tuba in HS, sousaphone mostly, but some on a four valve Conn recording tuba. Then after HS I was in the Army Band and again it was mostly sousaphone. But after that I played in a lot of different ensembles, SA Band with a three valve Eb, community and local college bands with a BBb five valve as well as an amateur symphony. Then about thirteen years ago I was in a very bad motorcycle accident that wrecked my back and caused me to loose my top teeth. I sold all my tubas and bass trombone thinking my playing days were over. I saw the Chet Baker movie and am trying to come back with full upper dentures. I think my biggest problem is my pride says I should be able to play well, but I am coming to the realization that I need to go back to the basics because I am essentially learning an entirely new embouchure. I just need to practice, practice, practice.

[arpthark]

I thank you all for your insights, they are most helpful. Yes, I am definitely overthinking everything. I think the main problem I have is not so much equipment, I think it is silly pride. I played tuba in HS, sousaphone mostly, but some on a four valve Conn recording tuba. Then after HS I was in the Army Band and again it was mostly sousaphone. But after that I played in a lot of different ensembles, SA Band with a three valve Eb, community and local college bands with a BBb five valve as well as an amateur symphony. Then about thirteen years ago I was in a very bad motorcycle accident that wrecked my back and caused me to loose my top teeth. I sold all my tubas and bass trombone thinking my playing days were over. I saw the Chet Baker movie and am trying to come back with full upper dentures. I think my biggest problem is my pride says I should be able to play well, but I am coming to the realization that I need to go back to the basics because I am essentially learning an entirely new embouchure. I just need to practice, practice, practice.

So awesome that you are overcoming personal obstacles and playing again. That is really commendable. Take it easy and slow and be kind to yourself and things will come back. I took a shorter break (3 years after a career change) but it was still hard going. After consistent practice* (although now I am in "maintenance mode"), I am playing at a level I haven't since I was a tuba performance major 15 years ago. Moral of the story: it will come back, and you got this!

*practice, to me, did not include so much "daily routine" stuff, but (simply) playing songs, figuring out tunes, playing out of the Real Book, working with a metronome, doing scales, keeping engaged. Oh yeah, and Bai Lin lip flexibility exercises kicked my butt.

[donn]

Bach 18 is not a small mouthpiece. Its cup diameter lists at 32.5mm - same as the Conn 120S Helleberg - and the throat is the same 8.84mm as the 24AW, with the same 810 back bore as well. I've never even seen 18 or 24AW in person, but apparently, from those who are familiar with them, there might be reason to believe that these numerical parameters don't really tell the story of how they play. I did used to have a Bach 7, and I thought fairly highly of it. Never heard of a 7GP, but have been assuming it's dimensionally a 7; the "Megatone" mouthpieces, I would steer clear of. Would like to try a Bach 12 some day.

I have a couple mouthpieces that seem to take extra air. No idea why. I'm guessing it's something about the backbore, but who knows. Anyway, one can get used to it, and they don't really take any air you don't give them, so I'd say it tends to be a good thing in the end.

My teeth are terrible, maxillary lateral incisors (?) stick out from the rest. My father advised me to press on them with my fingers when otherwise idle, in lieu of braces, but I didn't really do that. This spring, I tripped over a weirdly high curb, fell on my face, and broke one of them right off. I specified that the replacement should be more even with the rest of my teeth. I think it has been helping.

[arpthark]

Bach 18 is not a small mouthpiece. Its cup diameter lists at 32.5mm - same as the Conn 120S Helleberg - and the throat is the same 8.84mm as the 24AW, with the same 810 back bore as well. I've never even seen 18 or 24AW in person, but apparently, from those who are familiar with them, there might be reason to believe that these numerical parameters don't really tell the story of how they play.

Bach 18 cup diameter is 32.10 mm, but maybe that has changed over the years (as have a lot of things with Bach). The backbore thing is really surprising to me, as someone who has owned or played a bajillion Bach 18s over the years and found them to "play small," but according to everything I've found on the internet, you're right. I still stand by the opinion that it seems small; probably has more to do with cup depth/diameter for me.

[Thom]

I thank y’all for the responses, I really appreciate all the advice. I think I am going to go with the silver Bach 25 for now. I still need to get my chops back and like Arnold Jacobs says I need to concentrate on making music in the brain and stop focusing on the embouchure and equipment. I have an 18 and 22 I can fall back on if needed later. Just to put it out there, the reason I stick with the Bach Mouthpieces is because I have tried various name and off brand mouthpieces, and for whatever reason, I find the Bach’s more comfortable and easier to produce a pleasing tone. It could be in my head, I don’t know

[Ace]

When I was playing for 10 years in various high-quality community orchestras, I found the best over all mouthpiece for me was the PT-50. And that was on a number of different tubas---Mira 186 and 188; Cerveny 601-5MR; and MW 2145. It may be significant that the mouthpieces the factories shipped with the MW and Cerveny were 24AW's.

Ace

[WC8KCY]

Due to an illness years ago, I no longer have the lung capacity I once had, and air efficiency is a prime consideration for me when matching a mouthpiece to a tuba.

I have the Kelly rendition of the Bach 25, and it strikes a nice balance between tone quality, air efficiency, and endurance. If you're absolutely in love with the Bach rim profile, the Bach 25 will likely be a fine choice.

For an even more air-efficient option on a 3/4 BB-flat, I think the RT-62 and RT-64 are really tough to beat at the ~US$100 price point. There's a certain precision about the response with these that the 25 lacks. Both models generate more volume and deliver a more colorful sound than the 25. The 62 delivers a bit more focus and core than the 64, while the 64 offers more richness and depth. The rim profile on the 62 is a bit flatter than that of the 64.

About as air-efficient as the 25, for me, is the blokepiece Imperial. I use mine with a M.O. 32.3mm LH rim. This setup is even more responsive than the RT models mentioned above, can generate truly impressive volume on my small BB-flat, and I've received many, many compliments about the rich, glorious tone I can craft with it. The Bach rim profile works for me and the LH rim feels about the same on my chops, with slightly more bite on the inner rim. If you're willing to make the investment in a blokepiece, I'd highly recommend reaching out to bloke about one.

[2nd tenor]

I thank y’all for the responses, I really appreciate all the advice. I think I am going to go with the silver Bach 25 for now. I still need to get my chops back and like Arnold Jacobs says I need to concentrate on making music in the brain and stop focusing on the embouchure and equipment. I have an 18 and 22 I can fall back on if needed later. Just to put it out there, the reason I stick with the Bach Mouthpieces is because I have tried various name and off brand mouthpieces, and for whatever reason, I find the Bach’s more comfortable and easier to produce a pleasing tone. It could be in my head, I don’t know

I’m an Eb Bass player but occasionally I play BBb. The BBb that’s been available to me has needed a small shank mouthpiece and the biggest cup one that have is a Wick 3 which IIRC is slightly bigger than a Bach 25. I think that you’ll just about get by on a three valve BBb with a Bach 25 but really the instrument would respond positively to something bigger. I think that you’re wise to stick with one range (brand) of mouthpieces for now.

Getting chops back isn’t easy so start with the smallest mouthpiece that works for you and progress upwards over time. I think that the Bach 18 should be your target size for your BBb but work up to it over many months. Play the smallest piece that will do the job really well and, up to that size, the biggest piece that you can comfortably manage.

I use a Wick 2L on my four valve EEb, there’s little in it but a Wick 3L (slightly smaller) is not quite as good sounding but is easier to play.

[WC8KCY]

I tend to think of the Bach standard tuba mouthpieces as two distinct families:

Standard throat (8.33mm) and backbore: 12, 22, 25, 30E, 32E
Large throat (8.84mm) and more open backbore: 7, 18, 24W, 24AW

When air efficiency is a concern, it may be appropriate to stick to the standard throat models. If you go with the Bach 25, I'd just skip the 22 and go to the 12 once you get your chops back and you decide it's time for something bigger. I play a 12 on my large E-flat sousaphone and it's air-efficient enough to "play all day".

Note that the throats on Mega Tone Bachs are bigger than those of the standard models.