F tuba low C

[bloke]

Some tenor and bass trombone players gripe about the same relative pitch, which is f-attachment low f. It plays better for some of them with the slide in sixth position. They buy into all sorts of gadgety/gimmicky/expensive f attachment valves - which claim to solve the "problem", while often ignoring how well their tenor or bass trombone performs in the regular range of the instrument - as far as intonation and slide position consistency (less required micro adjusting within each position) is concerned, but there are players who figure out how to deal with low f with the rotor that they don't even notice it anymore, and there are other players who discover models of trombones - with plain old rotors - who don't encounter any problems. Some of the best trombone players I've worked with continue to use plain old rotors and not even so-called open wrap, which - in my opinion - doesn't accomplish anything either.

Not that any of this is a helpful tip or offers some trick, but does any of this sound relatable?

You know, clarinet players practice going across the "break", until they get it seamless. Guitar and bowed stringed instruments players work on shifts, until those are seamless...

[bloke]

...doesn't accomplish anything either.

Well, it makes the case/gig bag larger.

The issue with much of the "advancement" in trombone design is that there are a lot of things being changed at once. Like "hey here's a bass trombone with Thayer valves, a different bell taper, and almost no lead pipe... see how much more open that low C (both triggers and ~4 position) is?"

While in college, my prof was a bass t-bone player and had all of the up-to-date implements of warfare. He sounded his best on a 62H that Larry Minick had converted into independent rotors (using the original valves) and open wrap. I think the open wrap stuff was somewhat led by guys like Larry Minick simply because it's a heckuva lot easier to fabricate those tubing sections when compared to a manufaturer's 88H style wrap. A telling advancement in the world of Bass Trombone, to me, was the Yeo signature model, which ran counter to the trends. And Doug Yeo was plenty loud when he needed to be...

In regards to tenors with the F, there's probably other issues as well. Large bore tenors (0.547" - early bass t-bone bore) seem to already suffer from worse overtone series, witness the 88H and it's little bumper spring to allow players to get that D above the staff close in 1st position. I dunno how often slide players talk about the open series of large tenors, but it's probably not enough.

Add to that an F attachment, I'm sure it gets worse. Especially if they are tuning the attachment to play C in the staff in tune (common practice from when I was a slide operator) and then the low F is +/- 20 cents. Usually sharp, in my experience.

[LeMark]

Most trombones play low F 20 to 25 cents flat with the trigger, but don't offer the option of pushing in the slide far enough to make it in tune, and adjusting the slide out for C

That's a shame.

[bloke]

@LeMark

Yep... spot on, and previously noticed.

------------

Were it that I played a bunch of bass trombone, people would probably think I was a weirdo because I would probably have a single rotor instrument with that valve circuit tuned to an augmented fourth...

... I view it as torture to hold up all that heavy hardware with one's left arm, while also being responsible for two triggers in that same hand while working the right arm so rigorously.

I would also choose a bell that was about a half millimeter thick, as well as a lightweight slide.

What's so ghastly about playing in 5th and 6th position? After all, they exist. If 5th and 6th are so horrible, why are not two three and four horrible, and why not a six rotor bass trombone cimbasso thing with a way to trigger fine-tune the length of the entire instrument with one's thumb? ...and sure, someone could have all six of those valves be gimmick valves.

I'm not directing this at Mark; I'm directing this at the general way that bass trombone players think about things.

[matt g]

The issue becomes that there are patterns that are easier with valve trickery and now there are compositions that leverage this.

George Roberts did alright with a single valve bass.

[Finetales]

The whole reason trombonists started putting fancy valves on their horns is because for a long time Bach trombones were the standard, and had small rotors that often made playing down there harder than it needed to be. Modern rotors nowadays play fabulously well everywhere, and every trombonist has a different preference for valves. Some still prefer rotors (I do!), others prefer the wide-open feel of axials, and others are somewhere in between. It doesn't have much to do with low F specifically...in fact, apart from my very old-school trombone professor in undergrad, I've never met a trombonist (and especially not a bass trombonist) who had a problem with using the valve for F. Good luck playing Fountains of Rome without it...

One thing that IS true is that many of us younger bass trombonists tend to prefer the Gb valve to the F valve. For me it's the default for all Cs, Bs, Fs, and Es that you would normally play on the F valve.

[jtm]

One thing that IS true is that many of us younger bass trombonists tend to prefer the Gb valve to the F valve. For me it's the default for all Cs, Bs, Fs, and Es that you would normally play on the F valve.

… and for Db and Gb, too? Or do they have the same problem (intonation against the slide stop?) as C and F on the F valve?

[Finetales]

One thing that IS true is that many of us younger bass trombonists tend to prefer the Gb valve to the F valve. For me it's the default for all Cs, Bs, Fs, and Es that you would normally play on the F valve.

… and for Db and Gb, too? Or do they have the same problem (intonation against the slide stop?) as C and F on the F valve?

Db and Gb too, yes, but not as often in my case. I prefer to stay towards the middle of the slide if I can, and with two valves there are often ways to do that without going into 1st for Db or Gb. But I do use those close positions pretty often on some rep. Same with F/C in 1st, D in 1st with both valves, etc. Every possibility has its place!

Both of my valves are tuned so that they have room in 1st. I tune the F valve to F (which is the better choice, as tuning to C makes the F too flat) in the same place F in the staff goes on the open horn, just a tiny bit out from the bumpers. I like my Gb valve to be as sharp as it will go, so Db/Gb are significantly out. A little bonus is that since I play on a modified 72H, the slide is long enough to have a real low C in long 7th with the F valve tuned to F. Not that I need that much with two valves, but it's fun to have the option.

[Tubeast]

Trombone ergonomics are a total mystery to me.
I´m totally aware that comfort comes with practise and that we as tubists are pampered by a rather comfortable and relaxed playing position, but still...

Trombonists left arm position features the elbow being in or close to its fully flexed position (smallest angle between forearm and upper arm). The more muscular you are the larger that angle is.

I don´t know how you´re supposed to hold a trombone if you have any biceps at all.
Olympic weight lifters struggle with similar issues and will refrain from biceps training in order to be able to control the bar as it rests near clavicles during clean and jerk.

Next point: as a fully grown male, there´s no chance you can rest the horn´s weight on your shoulder (and I guess you´re not even supposed to and receive slaps on wrists from teachers early on if you try).
Along with a well balanced setup, a creative design might free your left hand to simply stabilize rather than carry the horn.
As far as I know, nobody passed legislation to rule that trombones had to be built along ONE straight axis...

[bloke]

It seems to me that second rotor strategies on bass trombones are due to their being more afraid of fifth position than we are of f tuba low c.

[arpthark]

It seems to me that second rotor strategies on bass trombones are due to their being more afraid of fifth position than we are of f tuba low c.

5th position = "out there somewhere," slide position might not be exactly right/in tune

F tuba low C = "down there somewhere," embouchure might not be exactly right/in tune

[bloke]

It seems to me that second rotor strategies on bass trombones are due to their being more afraid of fifth position than we are of f tuba low c.

5th position = "out there somewhere," slide position might not be exactly right/in tune

F tuba low C = "down there somewhere," embouchure might not be exactly right/in tune

If I posted what I'm thinking - in regards to both of those observations, it might ruffle feathers. I suspect you might be thinking the same things.

[Finetales]

It seems to me that second rotor strategies on bass trombones are due to their being more afraid of fifth position than we are of f tuba low c.

Some bass trombonists definitely seem to avoid 5th. The way I use the valves (usually staying near the middle of the slide), I am around 5th a lot - using the F valve alone for low D by default and often using the Gb valve alone for low Eb.