This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

[bloke]

Here’s the “in general“ thing for your thread:

A whole bunch models of tubas (“long/wide brass instruments”) feature 8th partial pitches which are flat.
Top of staff B-flat with B-flat tubas… Top of staff C with C tubas… top of staff E-flats with E-flat tubas, etc… Oddly, more F tubas’ flat 8th partials seem to kick in around D or D flat, up there.
I would encourage anyone - who’s tuba features this characteristic - to click “thank“, so the original poster will see that this characteristic is common.

[matt g]

Something to consider:

That flat note is around 340 Hz. The speed of sound in air is roughly 343 m/s (@20C with some moderate relative humidity), so doing the easy math says that the wavelength is around 1 meter. The first node is half of that, so somewhere around 50cm or so.

If there is some weirdness in the taper around those lengths, that might be part of it.

A fun experiment would be to get the horn into significantly warmer or colder air and see what happens. Further, if the maker was “tuning” this horn in some colder drier air, it might’ve been closer to “in tune” on the main harmonic series in that climate.

Plus, wood seems to offer a degree of freedom that might be unwanted.

[jtm]

Here’s the “in general“ thing for your thread:

A whole bunch models of tubas (“long/wide brass instruments”) feature 8th partial pitches which are flat.
Top of staff B-flat with B-flat tubas… Top of staff C with C tubas… top of staff E-flats with E-flat tubas, etc… Oddly, more F tubas’ flat 8th partials seem to kick in around D or D flat, up there.
I would encourage anyone - who’s tuba features this characteristic - to click “thank“, so the original poster will see that this characteristic is common.

I’m feeling so lucky… middle C is nice; C# below the staff is easy to lip down, or lip up 5-1-2; 5th partials are a little flat, but I’m used to that. Life’s a dream.

[BopEuph]

Here’s the “in general“ thing for your thread:

A whole bunch models of tubas (“long/wide brass instruments”) feature 8th partial pitches which are flat.

You know, I didn't think about that. But my horns are all easy to manipulate on that partial; the intonation is within maybe 10-15 cents, not 50. BUT, this does make me feel less crazy, because I figured harmonics should be in tune in the octaves at least. So I'm starting to really lean towards this being a "B" stock horn rather than just throwing a bone out once a month or so and seeing what happens.

A fun experiment would be to get the horn into significantly warmer or colder air and see what happens. Further, if the maker was “tuning” this horn in some colder drier air, it might’ve been closer to “in tune” on the main harmonic series in that climate.

This is actually a pretty fair assessment, seeing that the horn was made in Switzerland (or so it says...the mouthpiece maker suspects it's a "cheap German instrument"). Being in Florida (albeit in the A/C), that might account for plenty.

[Mary Ann]

i didn't read all the comments, but I have played several alphorns (and I'm a horn player) and have never seen this problem. I think you got a bad one, but would be curious what a horn player does with it. Could be you are "pushing the slots" just in general and "not pushing the slots" might get it more in the 440 range you're looking for and also have that F not be as flat in comparison.

[jerseyeuph]

Could be you are "pushing the slots" just in general and "not pushing the slots"

Hi Mary Ann,

Could you please explain a bit further? This terminology is new to me.

Thanks!

jersey

[Mary Ann]

When a player feels a bit insecure in their embouchure, often they will buzz at the top of the slot instead of in the middle. The "width" of the slot is basically how far you can lip the pitch (up and down) without jumping partials. So, if you are playing mostly at the top of the slots to feel "secure" on this instrument, that could explain both why you discern it's at 444 (can you lip it down to 440? can you lip it below 440?) and why that bad pitch is so very bad. If you are playing at the top of the slots and can manage to get down into the middle, or even below the middle of the slots on all the "better" partials, you might find that the bad pitch is lippable into tune.
And it would be helpful if you get someone who is competent on the (French) horn to try your instrument and see if s/he has the same problem with the overall pitch. When I've played alphorns, I was already competent on the (French) horn and so was used to managing pitch on that type of instrument. I will add a story though, that is still interesting decades later. I first played an alphorn at the Banff IHS which was maybe in the year 2000, but I don't really remember. There was a professional Japanese horn player there who simply could not make the alphorn play, and he was intensely frustrated. I wasn't there for that but heard about it. So if you're having a bit of trouble you are in good company.

[jerseyeuph]

Interesting. Does the proportion of conical vs. cylindrical tubing influence slot width in a predictible manner? Thanks.

[Mary Ann]

I have no idea. I don't really know much about the physics of instruments other than the harmonic series. I can tell you that on a (french) horn, I can bend the lowest partials at least a fourth and sometimes more than that; the upper partials, they will jump to the next one pretty quickly, because it's just right there.

[jerseyeuph]

Just curious. Thanks!

[BopEuph]

i didn't read all the comments, but I have played several alphorns (and I'm a horn player) and have never seen this problem. I think you got a bad one, but would be curious what a horn player does with it. Could be you are "pushing the slots" just in general and "not pushing the slots" might get it more in the 440 range you're looking for and also have that F not be as flat in comparison.

It's possible, but that test was of me trying to sit the horn into exactly where it was without any lipping. I still managed to lip that high F up the first time, though.

I just don't know how possible it would actually be to have an octave of the fundamental so flat, anyway. And the mouthpiece is basically a trombone mouthpiece, so I'm wondering if it's just too big for the horn in the first place. I'm waiting (rather impatiently) for the adapter to come in so I can throw a baritone/lead trombone mouthpiece onto it and see what happens. I would really love a "real" alphorn mouthpiece, but don't want to keep spending money on that kind of a search for something that is ultimately for the purposes of some extra supplemental income.

[Mary Ann]

Almost all horn players play one of those with a horn mouthpiece. The one that comes with it is not nearly as usable. Get something like a Farkas MC and try that.

[BopEuph]

I don't know if I can manage to get proficient on such a tiny mouthpiece! I did buy an adapter since I have a plethora of trombone and baritone mouthpieces that may work. And just my luck, the adapter made it in splinters.

I have a Warburton lead trombone mouthpiece and a tiny baritone mouthpiece that I have no clue where it came from, as well as a few Bach student pieces that are on the smaller end. I'm hoping one of those will work, and the closer I get, the more I can see if a better wooden mouthpiece will work.

[BopEuph]

So I actually talked to Bill Rose yesterday. Bill is the trombone professor at McNeese State University, and is very active in the alphorn community internationally. We had a great conversation about this.

Word got out that there's a tuba player in town who plays and owns an alphorn, so my Oktoberfest season has been PACKED. I've arranged four alphorn features to play with various bands (as well as two baritone solos that I play on tuba), and have been working up a lot of traditional alphorn literature on the side (actually got a damn good paying gig playing this kind of stuff). There are a dozen or so guys in town that CAN play alphorn, but nobody really studies the literature or the history. More like what I'm doing in these polka bands: "hey, here's a weird instrument. Wanna hear a solo? Well, you're not going to like it, but here goes!"

I've been listening, buying, and transcribing alphorn literature to really understand the instrument, and this is why I have been annoyed with the intonation issues.

Turns out that something closely related is the fact that sitting in the melodic range on the instrument really tires out my chops after about 20-30 minutes of playing. I used to play lead trombone in my younger days, and figured I'm just out of shape and should simply work up my endurance. I asked Bill about this, and told him that the mouthpiece that came with my horn was their 28mm mouthpiece. He said that's absolutely going to affect both aspects of my playing, and it's like playing alto trombone parts on a bass bone. And such a big mouthpiece is also going to be the reason the F is so flat.

Also, according to him, the horn is absolutely not a "B-stock" instrument they threw up on eBay. Apparently they would spit out a number of horns monthly, and throw one up on eBay every month with an insanely low starting bid to get the word out there about their horns. So winning this auction at $650 was an extremely lucky score (and it paid for itself with the first gig).

Bill said he went through the same exact issues getting his first alphorn. So sitting around, playing pieces that go from middle C to the octave above that (and maybe even up to the F) is going to tire me out with that mouthpiece, no matter how much endurance I build up. And it's always going to play flat in the upper range until I get something smaller.

The best part about all of this is that they're actually working on an alphorn summit down here in Orlando for February, and the main guy is apparently going to bring a suitcase full of mouthpieces for the purpose of sharing horns, but that just means I get to try some much smaller pieces and see what works for me.

The weird (actually probably better) thing about alphorn mouthpieces is their sizes are actual measurements, and go from 17-28mm. I think the measurements are inner rim diameter--this kind of information is lost in translation when surfing translated websites. My horn came with the 28mm mouthpiece. Bill is suggesting around 23-24mm. I was thinking even smaller, since a trumpet player could sit in that range all day long and never tire out, but then I'd probably have to relearn an embouchure that'll work with that size (also, he said that much smaller means you lose the lower range of the instrument). Apparently the 23mm is very close to an alto trombone mouthpiece.

I've been reluctant to buy a bunch of ~$90 mouthpieces until I find something that works for me, since you can't simply walk into a store and try this kind of stuff out. But finding a trombone player (rather than a horn player) to have this discussion with really helps figure this stuff out without dropping a ton of money.

So, yeah. A lot of new information with nothing actually solved yet, but I think I'm on the right track.

[arpthark]

Wouldn't an alphorn summit just be called... an alp?