5J - POLL ADDED !!!

[bloke]

A local gent (FexEx headquarters exec) mostly plays bass 'bone (currently in a community band), but also plays tuba (currently in a brass quintet).

He bought a pawn shop 5J (several years ago) that I had seen and passed up. It was only $400, but needed a bunch of work and - well... - that was back with $400 was worth c. what $800 or $1000 is worth, today.

...so he was referred to me (you know: "the guy who is a tuba repair 'specialist, because I PLAY the tuba...never mind, trumpets/trombones/horns/woodwinds/etc.") , and wants it fixed up (thankfully, NOT re-lacquered).
The more I do, the more excited he gets, and the more he wants me to step up the quality/attention-to-detail of the repair work.

He's being responsible, I suppose ("OK...I paid $400, and $XXXX means that I'll only have $XXXX in it", etc.) OK...that's fine but (again) he'll have more into it (factoring in inflation of the amount that he paid for it), but I believe he's still going to be OK - based on which nice-condition Olds/Reynolds/Conn 4-valve 7/8th-size tubas sell for on eBay.

btw...The mouthpipe solder joint to the valve block was totally - well - not, and the valves (both up and down positions) were about 1/8th of an inch mis-aligned...so here's ONE 5J that's - at least - going to be LESS stuffy than before.

...so here are a couple of pictures that I sent him - as part of what he wants done regarding "stepping up the game"...
(I'm done for the day...I need to clean up, eat, and - believe it or not - practice. nope...no "routine"...I'm going to work on NON-routine stuff: ie. stuff that I can't do very well.)


The cap is o.e.m., but removed and smoothed out. The current caps (are they still in business...??) are smaller and crappy-looking.
Yes: I'm reinstalling BOTH the tangential rib AND the side rib...AFTER I get this cap back on.

[bloke]

To be really candid, I took on this job (in addition to the fact that the owner seems to be a really nice guy, and seemed really excited about finally getting this thing in good condition) because it looked/looks like something I can finish before heading out of town for the weekend (to play another show) yet make some decent money prior to having to pack up and scoot.

Remaining is a valveset acid clean, remove some more (I promised "some more", and NOT "all") lacquer remaining on the soldered-together bows, upgrade the bell (from "music-store-fixed to bloke-fixed), remove a few mouthpipe dents, solder on two knocked-off water keys, stick it all back together, and make certain (apparently, unlike most of these...??) that the piston felts do what they should do.

To this point, I've unsoldered the instrument, removed all of the smaller bow dents (leaving the upper and inner bows all connected, and this includes some dents which were causing the main slide to scrape against the bottom bow), taken care of this major bottom bow gig, stuck it all back together and (mostly) cleaned it up.

I'm going to clean up, drink some coffee, and (once again) look at this weekend's tunes - two or three of which aren't simply "reads". I also need to listen to a this second-tier country music star's tunes on youtube, and decide whether tuba or cimbasso is better for some/all/any of them.

Truth be told - after working on this bottom bow, I have a bit more respect for Abeline, TX production.
Once it's back together, I'll report on whether this one plays any better than all the rest (re: piston alignment).

As can be seen, this is a straightening-out gig, and NOT any sort of refinishing gig. The pictures demonstrate that - though I did a conscientious job of straightening out this bow - I didn't remove any material (nor scratches...and you can also see that there's just a bit more solder cleanup to do). I did (as I have been doing, for a few years) use my rounding rings. I've always been able to end up with bottom bows nearly round, but those things allow me to take them to the next level (sometimes, I believe rounder than original production).
somewhat gratifying (vs. 45-or-so years ago)...
having gotten the knack of smoothing out dented-up o.e.m. bow caps, and having them - then - FIT back on their bottom bows...





The rib along the side didn't really want to solder back on quickly, but maybe (??) my pre-mount surfaces cleaning was too rushed...whatever...

[bloke]

sigh...
I get it why some people take bells off prior to repairing them (because it makes it so very easy, YET the work of removing/installation/finish touch-up)...but annealing them too...(??) whatever...to each their own...






yeah...That's lacquer - past the bell throat. That's how I received it...I may-or-may-not cut it down lower...It's just going to turn brown (if I do) because there's no re-lacquering involved in this gig.



IF (??) I get this stuck together tomorrow, I'll ACTUALLY finish something within my own estimated number of hours.
IF (??) I don't get it stuck together until the NEXT day, at LEAST it will be done before I leave town (and I won't have to face it when I get back home).

[bloke]

Once I send off a couple of e-bills to a couple of customers and a band director picks up his brought-back-from-the-dead tubas and euphoniums, I'm going to see how far I can get on this thing today as far as getting it stuck back together.

Per typical, I'm screwing around here waiting for something to happen. Mrs bloke is searching for a box for an alto saxophone that's being shipped to Baltimore. We had a huge stack of old Yamaha 23 alto saxophones, I made them look pretty nice without completely re-lacquering them, Mrs bloke either completely re-padded all of them (or partially), and all are now sold off except the last three or so. Band directors seem to think those things are wonderful, and we certainly didn't need a big stack of them sitting around here for another bunch of years, so we got busy. Due to the economy, when music stores now go into the band rooms and try to rent even off brand alto saxophones for their fancy prices, parents just give them the blank stare, and their kids don't have instruments... so band directors are suddenly buying alto saxophones from us. Once we get it in a box, we will have dimensions and weight and can e-bill that person correctly.

[bloke]

I couldn't go by any witness marks, because this thing had been badly damaged, taken apart, crap-fixed, and put back together (wrong - in numerous ways) in the past.

Tacking the bugle, bottom bow, and bell together, I'm having Mrs. bloke help me, and I'm testing the (complicated on 5J) valveset against the other geometry. I'm now satisfied with the way the non-adjustable small braces are "landing" on the bugle, the fit of the mouthpipe around the bell from the valve block and (rather than dragging on the bottom bow) the main slide now misses it by approx. a half an inch.

"Take it to bloke...He's a tuba player, so he knows what he's doing."

That's bullcrap. "Playing the tuba" has NOTHING to do with it.

...I'm still going to need a third hand, and she's off on errands with our son...so (yup) I'm going to grab a hot bath (sore old-guy muscles) and work on some of the music for this weekend's out-of-town show, until she returns. For the last show, I felt as though I was scuffling just a bit (as I didn't have much time to look at the charts - still pushing to rid the shop of the last-and-perhaps-the-worst pile of school instruments (Yamaha euphonia and Besson tubae in HORRID condition), as well as slicking out sax bodies for Mrs. bloke - who has managed to sell nearly our entire stack of model 23 altos to yama-lovin' band directors...depression/hyperinflation economy = beginners' parents saying "no thanks" to saxophone rentals), and I really don't like that sight-reading-at-the-first-rehearsal feeling.

Needless to say, instruments (even quite beat-up) which have never before been taken apart are those which cause me to sigh less - on the front end and during a major repair, as the witness marks are going to be reliable...

...I did buff away some old burned lacquer (with the valveset removed) along with some adjacent not-burned lacquer...That Abilene epoxy is some of the most durable I've encountered...possibly because it's thick. I did not agree to strip all the remaining lacquer. The limited remaining amount of (real-not-crap) paint stripper that I still have here is precious to me, and I'm saving it for (ok: to me) "important" stuff.

...and (again) I am garnering more respect for Abilene production Conn instruments (through the rotary valves were horrid)...certainly compared to current production.

[bloke]

I don't think I'm going to have this thing tooting by tomorrow. We've have found that we need to go back into a couple of Mississippi schools early tomorrow morning, won't be back until about 11:00, and - though I might possibly be able to get it stuck together after we're back - I need to be looking at my charts one last time and gathering two days worth of clothes and such (plus concert wear) for departure to make a 6:00 out of town pops rehearsal. This is the show where I mentioned that Bruce Faske (not sure whether he'll be covering principal or bass trombone...??) will finally be subbing with us, and we are really looking forward to having him participate in TheHang®.

I am pretty pleased with dry fittings, though. Mrs. bloke is really helpful when it comes to that - preventing completely repaired tuba body parts from falling on the floor.

[BopEuph]

Did you get some before shots so that we can see a before/after comparison?

My 12J is getting the valveset overhauled right now. Seems a waste of money for such an old horn, but it's discontinued, and overhauling one I already have was much cheaper than buying another one that may or may not need work in the future.

I'm really missing the 12J right now. The 35lb. Kanstul is a bear to hold while standing, and I did pull a back muscle last week, and thought I just had a side cramp for a few days. It doesn't have eyelets for a strap, and I don't want to add them because the horn was never meant to be used for commercial gigs, but here I am. I'm just going to get through this season on this horn and have a much more nimble instrument next year to play these bat-out-of-hell solos.

Client might have overpaid, but the 12J/5J are really fun horns that can easily get around some fun music. Great for non-classical gigs.

[bloke]

I almost never take "before" pictures. It just occurs to me that everyone knows what a beat up tuba looks like with dents and creases, busted solder joints, jacked sideways stuff, etc.

They're not going to have $2,000 in this instrument, but it's going to be right. Don't most of the really straight condition 4-valve Conn and Olds things go for around two grand or more, these days?

Like I said, even though it was cheap in that pawn shop, I passed on it because of the patchy, burned, and messy-soldered-over lacquer, and I just didn't want to have to either completely get all of the lacquer off or relacquer the entire instrument in order to flip it. This is the perfect deal for me, because I'm getting paid for my time, and I'm not having to strip all of the remaining lacquer off of it.

You know what's really heavy on a 5J?

the valve section

Honestly, I'm curious as to whether it's going to play better than most other 5J tubas that I have casually tooted on - after I actually get the pistons on this small bore instrument aligned properly, rather than being 1/8 off on both ends of the valve strokes... frankly, I'm concerned that there may not be enough room under the valve cap for felt bumper that's thin enough.


I remember when they first came out with these things - after they weaned themselves off of purchasing re-badged California Olds tubas. I was at the Kansas/Colorado music educators shindig in 1979 - playing with both the faculty brass quintet and the band, Conn had a booth, Marty Erickson was hanging out with the Conn guy, and they (Marty, in particular) were really encouraging me to pick up the B-flat and/or C versions and play on them. At the time, I was teaching at one of the big universities in one of those two states - but was seriously thinking about not returning the next year (and - indeed - did not return). When I told the person who had recruited me that I would not be back, I got a really ugly lecture in return, which let me know that I was absolutely making the right decision... I've heard this happens a lot; can you just imagine if those types of people were trying to make a living in sales?

[BopEuph]

I almost never take "before" pictures. It just occurs to me that everyone knows what a beat up tuba looks like with dents and creases, busted solder joints, jacked sideways stuff, etc.

True, but it's kinda neat to see how much work went into it.

Don't most of the really straight condition 4-valve Conn and Olds things go for around two grand or more, these days?

Yeah, I'd say just before Covid you could get one around 1200-1500 if you were really patient, so $2k sounds about right. Hell, I've seen some people trying to sell a "refurbished" 12J with grafted on bell flares from random other horns for at least as much on eBay before. I was actually looking for something like that (or the old King 2341) to just do some contracted orchestra jobs just before Covid for 1500, but the Kanstul fell into my lap for a really great price, and I couldn't pass it up.

This is the perfect deal for me

Well then, awesome!

You know what's really heavy on a 5J?

the valve section

Yeah, the bugle is stupid light on my 12J. The whole horn might weigh 12lbs, and I imagine the 5J is just under 20? I've never actually held one.

When I told the person who had recruited me that I would not be back, I got a really ugly lecture in return, which let me know that I was absolutely making the right decision...

It's really funny when bad bosses don't understand that they're the reason they can't deal with retention.

[bloke]

I might be feeling over 20 lbs., here...(not a feather)
I'll weigh it - once it's all stuck back together.

Yes.
That person - themself - was THE primary reason that I left (in addition to all of the long-distance landline calls I was getting from all sorts of people back home...typically: "Hey bloke, where the hell are you? I got this long-distance number from your family...Are you just gone temporarily...?? We have this steady club gig #1, steady club gig #2, brass quintet church-and-green-sheets thing - at least a gig a week, Memphis Symphony, jingles (radio/TV commercials), recording sessions (lp's, sports league themes - from 10-section to 2-minute versions", etc., etc...), also a factor was an H.R.C.-esque landlord (in the university town) who "sealed the deal" by - around the end of that school year - deciding that a garbage dumpster was to be within twenty G-d feet of the front door of my townhouse, and painted a yellow line on the pavement around that piece of $h!t-smelling $h!t...

...plus (back home), I ended up with a day-gig (struggling to learn how to fix horns for a couple of guys who had a new shop, both of whom had day-gigs themselves, so I had to figure out everything on my own...but I did OK, and it was money.

I probably would have retired by now, but could you just imagine working in academia today...??
I've often thanked God/karma for delivering me to that a$$hole - sort of a Major Charles Emerson Winchester III type, except without the pedigree - that early in my adult life.

[York-aholic]

You know what's really heavy on a 5J?

The bottom valve caps. The bottoms on them must be 1/4-3/8” thick!

[bloke]

You know what's really heavy on a 5J?

The bottom valve caps. The bottoms on them must be 1/4-3/8” thick!

yes...and the pistons themselves are overbuilt as well...

...That having been said, so far I've not seen an Abeline .658" bore tuba piston with worn-through nickel plating.

The 5J bell and bows (same as 3-valve versions - and NOT paper-thin) are sort-of "featherweight".

[York-aholic]

You're absolutely right though. THe 5J seemed a bit heavy but not terribly. When I held just the valve cluster, I was amazed at how much heft that thing has!

[bloke]

You're absolutely right though. THe 5J seemed a bit heavy but not terribly. When I help just the valve cluster, I was amazed at how much heft that thing has!

The USA instruments' designers (made in the 1960's and beyond - in this size range) all seemed to have underestimated the importance of durable bell-to-bugle bracing.

[UncleBeer]

I did (as I have been doing, for a few years) use my rounding rings.

Where'd you get yours? I know Böhm used to carry them, but haven't seen anyone selling them for awhile.

Edit: found 'em in a 2008 Ferree's catalog. Still wondering where they can be bought now though...

RR.jpg (29.99 KiB) Viewed 11818 times

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[UncleBeer]

Bohm still sell them. $$$$ or rather €€€€.

Looked through their catalogue: https://www.boehmtools.com/index.php?id=23942

[bloke]

Have had them for a long time. I bought them, didn't really use them much, and was ashamed of myself for spending the money, but eventually started using them and realized that I had done something pretty smart, even though I am stupid.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[UncleBeer]

Thanks! Skimming through, I'd assumed they were just draw plates.