Valved Ophicleide??

[tobysima`]

I'm not sure about how well those keys would work on a brass instrument? Would air leak through? Is there such a thing as a valved ophicleide? And are C and Bb ophicleide different in terms of tuning??

[bloke]

Though some present-day custom fabricators and frankentubaists have built (what they’ve personally labeled) valved ophicleides, the very early tubas - made in the 1830s - sure look like “valved ophicleides“ to me.
My understanding is that “B-flat vs. C ophicleides“ is the same sort of difference as the difference between B-flat “tenor” saxophones and (obsolete) C “melody” saxophones.

[tobysima`]

Though some present-day custom fabricators and frankentubaists have built (what they’ve personally labeled) valved ophicleides, the very early tubas - made in the 1830s - sure look like “valved ophicleides“ to me.
My understanding is that “B-flat vs. C ophicleides“ is the same sort of difference as the difference between B-flat “tenor” saxophones and (obsolete) C “melody” saxophones.

I'd assume that they'd both have quirk notes since they're rather quirky instruments. I would definitely like something that I can get the tonal quality of an ophicleide with, and I'd assume the keys would be slightly awkward.

[Robert Tucci]

Toby,

At the Frankfurt music show in 2014, the Syre shop/Leipzig presented a rather fine "valve Ophicleide". Photo attached.

Bob Tucci-Munich

[matt g]

That is cool!

[tobysima`]

Toby,

At the Frankfurt music show in 2014, the Syre shop/Leipzig presented a rather fine "valve Ophicleide". Photo attached.

Bob Tucci-Munich

Oh wow!! That looks wonderful!! How does it sound, and what key is it in? Is that the one that is currently sold by Nakagawa?

[bloke]

' pretty sure that once the tone holes and pads are gone (and replaced with valves) the tonal quality is completely different...as all vibrating air columns will - then - involve the bell.

[tobysima`]

' pretty sure that once the tone holes and pads are gone (and replaced with valves) the tonal quality is completely different...as all vibrating air columns will - then - involve the bell.

That's fair. I just wasn't sure if there was a modern equivalent to the ophicleide. I assumed there was because someone would have wanted valves on an ophicleide by now

[groovlow]

Bob

Thanks for the pic. The instrument sheds light on the linage of American civil war over the shoulder horns.

Joe H

[tobysima`]

Bob

Thanks for the pic. The instrument sheds light on the linage of American civil war over the shoulder horns.

Joe H

It's a gorgeous horn!! It definitely resembles one of those saxhorns.

[Snake Charmer]

The Ophicleide is quite a very ....hm... interesting instrument. The way with tone holes for lip activated brass instruments does not work too well, so the valves were invented. But still the ophi predates the tuba for 18 years. And the tuba was invented twice: in Berlin the famous 5 valve Moritz/Wieprecht and in Vienna the 3 valve Riedl. The Riedl was not really a tuba in the modern way of thinking but more a bigger trumpet/flugel. But this set the template for generations of 3-valved "tubas".
The keyed ophi has some inadequacies in tuning, because the partials do not come evenly with shortening the air column per side-hole. And tone quality differs a bit depending on how much keys are open. So there are some quite "bad" notes. To avoid this Berlioz used one in C and one in Bb together, so the bad note on one instrument is masked by a strong one on the other.
The difference between C and Bb ophis is comparable with BBb and CC tubas...
The "Valved Ophicleide" was just something in the 19th century between a Riedl-related tuba and the common nomenclature "Ophicleide" in public knowledge. In those days the players just used what they had at hand (just like today, think of Symphony Fantastique, Bydlo...).
The modern valved ophi (like the Leipzig-made Syhre) are just very narrow built F-tubas which try to emulate the sound of the keyed ophi with the comfort and benefits of a modern tuba. But this does not really work! The real successors of the ophicleide are the french C tuba and the Bb saxhorn basse (5 valves).

[tobysima`]

The Ophicleide is quite a very ....hm... interesting instrument. The way with tone holes for lip activated brass instruments does not work too well, so the valves were invented. But still the ophi predates the tuba for 18 years. And the tuba was invented twice: in Berlin the famous 5 valve Moritz/Wieprecht and in Vienna the 3 valve Riedl. The Riedl was not really a tuba in the modern way of thinking but more a bigger trumpet/flugel. But this set the template for generations of 3-valved "tubas".
The keyed ophi has some inadequacies in tuning, because the partials do not come evenly with shortening the air column per side-hole. And tone quality differs a bit depending on how much keys are open. So there are some quite "bad" notes. To avoid this Berlioz used one in C and one in Bb together, so the bad note on one instrument is masked by a strong one on the other.
The difference between C and Bb ophis is comparable with BBb and CC tubas...
The "Valved Ophicleide" was just something in the 19th century between a Riedl-related tuba and the common nomenclature "Ophicleide" in public knowledge. In those days the players just used what they had at hand (just like today, think of Symphony Fantastique, Bydlo...).
The modern valved ophi (like the Leipzig-made Syhre) are just very narrow built F-tubas which try to emulate the sound of the keyed ophi with the comfort and benefits of a modern tuba. But this does not really work! The real successors of the ophicleide are the french C tuba and the Bb saxhorn basse (5 valves).

The French C tuba would get that characteristic sound, too?

[dp]

sounds awful

[Snake Charmer]

The sound of the keyed ophi is unique: it has a lot of brass colour, but with some singing and "reediness" in it. It feels very alive in playing, you can modulate pitch in most directions (and you have to slot it where it belongs) and you can emulate a more brassy or more bassoon-like sound so you can blend it in woodwind or brass groups. For that it doesn't matter if it is a C or Bb instrument. The C ophis were more common in the symphonic or opera orchestras, the Bb more for (military) wind bands. Other than on valved instruments there are some keys really nasty to play, like for woodwinds (see A, Bb and C clarinets for standard orchestra use).
The sound of the french C tuba is of course pure brass, somewhere between F tuba and bass trombone. Compared to similar sized euphonium: less velvet in the higher range and much more punch in the low register.

[iiipopes]

I'm not sure about how well those keys would work on a brass instrument? Would air leak through? Is there such a thing as a valved ophicleide? And are C and Bb ophicleide different in terms of tuning??

In the right hands, they work very well indeed.

[tobysima`]

In the right hands, they work very well indeed.

I do quite enjoy that video. Just not sure about how these compare with "normal" brass instruments.

[tobysima`]

The sound of the keyed ophi is unique: it has a lot of brass colour, but with some singing and "reediness" in it. It feels very alive in playing, you can modulate pitch in most directions (and you have to slot it where it belongs) and you can emulate a more brassy or more bassoon-like sound so you can blend it in woodwind or brass groups. For that it doesn't matter if it is a C or Bb instrument. The C ophis were more common in the symphonic or opera orchestras, the Bb more for (military) wind bands. Other than on valved instruments there are some keys really nasty to play, like for woodwinds (see A, Bb and C clarinets for standard orchestra use).
The sound of the french C tuba is of course pure brass, somewhere between F tuba and bass trombone. Compared to similar sized euphonium: less velvet in the higher range and much more punch in the low register.

Mouthpiece switching could definitely make the French C tuba much more versatile than similar tenor instruments. Maybe an ophicleide mouthpiece could help get that instrument there, and It is quite similar to a euphonium, and a euph mouthpiece could get that velvet in the high register. Finally, maybe a tenor tuba mouthpiece like the Bobo one could give that horn the tenor tuba sound, as well.

[Snake Charmer]

In the old days ophi mouthpieces were offered from straight funnel to wide bowl shape, but even now there is nothing like "Ophi Only Mouthpiece".
After some testing I ended with the Kelly Bass Bone which I also use on the french C and the saxhorn basse. And: the instruments still sound different...
The very special sound has its origin in the very conical bore (only the tuning slide is cylindrical) and the side holes (with the sound coming out at the bell, or your right hip, or your left hand... never use a bell mic on the ophi!)
When searching a proper mouthpiece for my first french C (1940 Courtois with euro-shank) I played for some time a Steven Mead Ultra, but it still sounded like a french C. The horn offers less velvet (or better: a less plushy velvet!) than an euph, and this is a thing I like on her. Other than with an euph you can sound really angry with the french C, or very spritely. And she always sounds like a tenor tuba! Only velvet is not enough...

[tobysima`]

In the old days ophi mouthpieces were offered from straight funnel to wide bowl shape, but even now there is nothing like "Ophi Only Mouthpiece".
After some testing I ended with the Kelly Bass Bone which I also use on the french C and the saxhorn basse. And: the instruments still sound different...
The very special sound has its origin in the very conical bore (only the tuning slide is cylindrical) and the side holes (with the sound coming out at the bell, or your right hip, or your left hand... never use a bell mic on the ophi!)
When searching a proper mouthpiece for my first french C (1940 Courtois with euro-shank) I played for some time a Steven Mead Ultra, but it still sounded like a french C. The horn offers less velvet (or better: a less plushy velvet!) than an euph, and this is a thing I like on her. Other than with an euph you can sound really angry with the french C, or very spritely. And she always sounds like a tenor tuba! Only velvet is not enough...

So if I want to have an ophicleide sound, I need to use an ophicleide?

[matt g]

Obvious result is obvious.