C or Bb ???

[marccromme]

Looking for a 5/4 contrabass tuba, frontaction piston or rotary with 5 valves. I am used to play a MW 5v frontaction EB tuba, and like the concept. Have a Amati Bb 681 4v Rotary, but it is not so god in the lover register. And miss the 5th halve.

Have seen a Weltklang 104 Bb with 5th valve, and an Cerveny 601 Bb with space to add a valve.

Considering also going over to C, for example a Cerveny CC with 5 valves. Or a PT6.

Apart from the obvious need to learn new fingerings, which does not scare me, are there advantages? The obvious, there are more CC than BB with five valves..What about Better internal intonation on a CC versus BB Cerveny? Or other tings I need to consider?

NB, I don't care if some nitwick thinks I have the wrong tuba, I am playing for my pleasure, and want a contrabass with good intonation, projection and response, preferably 5/4 sizish. ..

[DonO.]

If I remember correctly, you are in Denmark, correct? BBb is much more standard than CC, while in the USA CC vs BBb is more confusing. CC is favored by many professional players, particularly those in orchestras, while BBb is favored in schools and with many amateurs. These are generalizations, you will find exceptions to both. In the USA BBb is gaining in popularity lately for a variety of reasons.

Of course you can find 5 valve BBb tubas, but the 5th valve seems more easily found on CC. That may be due to pitch tendencies on certain problematic notes on the CC that aren’t as problematic on BBb. But any properly designed tuba, regardless of key, can be played reasonably well in tune. Part of it is the player’s ear and willingness to “lip” certain notes into better tune, which becomes second nature after a while. Lidl shipped a 4 valve CC to Lee Stofer (“Tubameister”) and he was skeptical, but was amazed at how well in tune it plays. So a 5th valve isn’t and absolute necessity in either key. The best advice I can give you is to try as many tubas as you are able that meet your criteria, the buy the one you are most comfortable with. Then learn its idiosyncrasies (ALL tubas have them), how to set the slides for the best intonation compromises, then have fun! Good luck!

[marccromme]

Yes, I am living in Copenhagen, Denmark. Classical musicians play almost exclusively F and C, amateurs often Eb and Bb, but also F and C. Played a concert today with a section consisting of a F B&S, my Eb MW, a Bb Yamaha 641, and a 6/4 Hirsbrunner C frontaction. Worked quite well. ....

Problem is that there are very few used C or B with 5 valves on the market in DK, if at all, and I like to know what instruments to look for.... before crossing borders to try a possible tuba

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[Sousaswag]

I’ll give you the worst possible advice:

I love my M-W 5450RA. You should get one of those.

In all seriousness, you can’t go wrong with either M-W 5450 or a Pt6. Both are good instruments with a lot of success.

Finding an instrument is such a personal choice. Play a bunch of them and pick the one you like best.

[matt g]

Willson made the 3100 which was a 5v Bb
MW makes the Fafner with five valves
Miraphone offers most all Bb offerings with a fifth valve option

It’s probably easier to find a 5V C, but you’ll likely be far happier with a Bb in terms of finger management.

[donn]

Ibut the 5th valve seems more easily found on CC. That may be due to pitch tendencies on certain problematic notes on the CC that aren’t as problematic on BBb

I imagined it was because people care more about F an octave below the staff, than the Eb below it. You're saying maybe a C player would find other uses for that 5th valve, besides notes that combine it with the 4th valve?

My BBb has a trigger, which I use only with Eb 1+4 and C 1234 (where it isn't enough) (not that I really get those notes in tuba parts.) I think many BBb tubas are more flexible down there, than mine.

[matt g]

If I remember correctly, you are in Denmark, correct? BBb is much more standard than CC, while in the USA CC vs BBb is more confusing. CC is favored by many professional players, particularly those in orchestras, while BBb is favored in schools and with many amateurs. These are generalizations, you will find exceptions to both. In the USA BBb is gaining in popularity lately for a variety of reasons.

This is inaccurate. As pointed out CC tubas are still common in many places in Europe. Likewise, while some pros have used Bb tubas but I’m unsure that this is really a “trend” or just a correction for some pieces of music. Similar to how trumpet peeps own several horns to navigate the literature.

[DonO.]

If I remember correctly, you are in Denmark, correct? BBb is much more standard than CC, while in the USA CC vs BBb is more confusing. CC is favored by many professional players, particularly those in orchestras, while BBb is favored in schools and with many amateurs. These are generalizations, you will find exceptions to both. In the USA BBb is gaining in popularity lately for a variety of reasons.

This is inaccurate. As pointed out CC tubas are still common in many places in Europe. Likewise, while some pros have used Bb tubas but I’m unsure that this is really a “trend” or just a correction for some pieces of music. Similar to how trumpet peeps own several horns to navigate the literature.

I meant to say “BBb is much more standard IN EUROPE”. I left out the ”in Europe” part. This is what I have always heard. I didn’t mean for it to sound like I knew what was standard in Denmark. If CC is more common in Europe than I have been lead to believe, I apologize for the inaccurate information.

As far as my use of the word “trend”, I stand by that. Back in my college days most college level tuba teachers were requiring CC. When I attended the Army Tuba Euphonium Conference in the 80’s it was a sea of C’s. My teacher and I were literally the only BBb players there as far as I could tell. These days, 40 years later you hear of more and more professionals and serious amateurs going to BBb. That meets my definition of a “trend”. If it doesn’t meet your definition, so be it.

[Rick Denney]

Bb is more standard in Germany for parts that say "Kontrabasstuba" in the upper left corner. But the standard instrument is probably an F tuba.

Outside of Germany there have been other influences. I think Mel Culbertson might have single-handedly ended the use of the C euphonium for tuba parts in French orchestras, and he did it with a C tuba. And we forget that Fletcher owned a Holton 345, which he had acquired from Bob Tucci, who like Fletch had redefined tuba performance standards in Europe, and who like Culbertson had brought his American practice with him. And, lest we forget, Bobo played in the Concertgebouw before he returned to playin the LA Phil. All that was half a century ago and more.

I suspect the only British pros who use Bb tubas are in brass bands, and I expect most of Europe is not that different than the U.S. in terms of the C becoming the standard contrabass. What's different there is that the bass tuba is closer to being the default instrument.

Most pro-quality Bb tubas can be obtained with five valves. Don't expect them to be any cheaper than their C counterparts.

Rick "who can't play well enough low enough to get much advantage from a fifth valve on a Bb tuba, but has six valves on his F" Denney

[DonO.]

If the trend of people switching back to Bb contrabass is derived from this forum, it’s a biased source.

I also understand that there are usa-based pro players using Bb on occasion for certain pieces, usually Russian composers and sometimes Wagner.

I’d similarly point out that tuba manufacturers like to sell Bb tubas in greater quantities than C because they can sell to schools. A good strategy is to have professional players take an existing model and tweak it for their use and then have two Bb models for sale. Then you have a high end and midline offering to sell to schools that have professional endorsement. This isn’t saying that the endorsement isn’t valid, rather businesses need to stay in business and selling a few 6/4 C tubas a month isn’t how to do it.

I’d agree with Rick that a 5V Bb contrabass will cost as much as a C new or used. It should cost more simply because it’s more materials for new and used would imply a sensible adult has owned it since schools aren’t out there getting 5V Bb contrabass tubas. The real question mark is why a 4V C would be worth more than a 4V Bb.

[DonO.]

Matt, here’s another piece of admittedly anecdotal evidence. I have been in contact with two well known American retailers regarding possible purchase of a certain BBb tuba. Both have been sold out of every BBb model for months now. They both have plenty of CC models on hand. They both say they are awaiting overdue shipments of new BBbs. Question for both retailers: if the BBbs sell so darn well that you can’t keep them in stock, and you CCs just sit around, why don’t you order more BBbs and fewer CCs, since the market is speaking so clearly? Could it be that the owner/operators of both businesses are CC players with some kind of personal emotional attachment to that key of instrument?

[marccromme]

Matt, here’s another piece of admittedly anecdotal evidence. I have been in contact with two well known American retailers regarding possible purchase of a certain BBb tuba. Both have been sold out of every BBb model for months now. They both have plenty of CC models on hand. They both say they are awaiting overdue shipments of new BBbs. Question for both retailers: if the BBbs sell so darn well that you can’t keep them in stock, and you CCs just sit around, why don’t you order more BBbs and fewer CCs, since the market is speaking so clearly? Could it be that the owner/operators of both businesses are CC players with some kind of personal emotional attachment to that key of instrument?

I agree completely that there could be some bias. I also think that the slow downfall of King/Conn has led to an increase of demand on other manufacturers. Yamaha is simply too expensive compared to other brands and isn’t winning bids like they used to.

[marccromme]

The Weltklang (B&S) 104 I’ve played was a really nice, big BBb tuba. I think it would be worth considering if it is good condition.

Nice to know, thanks, I will much consider it.

[marccromme]

...
I agree completely that there could be some bias. I also think that the slow downfall of King/Conn has led to an increase of demand on other mXxranufacturers. Yamaha is simply too expensive compared to other brands and isn’t winning bids like they used to.

Interesting how a specific question again drifts off to the realms of assumptions and unrelated guessings.

Please lets get back to my question. Would for example a Cerveny 601 CC offer better intonation over a 601 Bb? ? Better alignment of partials?Assuming both have 5 valves, that is.

Are there trends in the different 5/4 size contrabass tubas with respect to response, intonation and partials if comparing similar models in CC or BB?

As told, I happily learn new fingerings, no problem.

[marccromme]

Willson made the 3100 which was a 5v Bb
MW makes the Fafner with five valves
Miraphone offers most all Bb offerings with a fifth valve option

It’s probably easier to find a 5V C, but you’ll likely be far happier with a Bb in terms of finger management.

Thanks for these pointers. Did not think of the Wilson. Will keep an eye on it.

[bloke]

@Rick Denney

With FatBastard, the vast majority of the time when I'm using the fifth valve it is to play low E with 5-2-3 (to remedy the literal shortcomings of 2-4).
It is nice, because I can just punch buttons and cut loose without reaching desperately for either the fourth slide or some second valve slide trigger.
We all like to think that a whole bunch of low E-flats and low D's now appear in our music, but the truth probably is that not very many actually do appear.
Of course, those valve combinations are also readily at hand for me.
Once below D, players can say what they choose, but there really really isn't much written below that - except by people who don't know better.

to the insistence that we get back onto the perennial B-flat vs. C topic:

With an amazing instrument with five valves, the commonly written low range is more accessible - and jumps out more readily - with a B flat amazing instrument versus a C amazing instrument with the same number of valves, in my opinion... Less cylindrical plumbing and less valve porting may well be the reason...(??)

[marccromme]

@Rick Denney

With FatBastard, the vast majority of the time when I'm using the fifth valve it is to play low E with 5-2-3 (to remedy the literal shortcomings of 2-4).
It is nice, because I can just punch buttons and cut loose without reaching desperately for either the fourth slide or some second valve slide trigger.


With an amazing instrument with five valves, the commonly written low range is more accessible - and jumps out more readily - with a B flat amazing instrument versus a C amazing instrument with the same number of valves, in my opinion... Less cylindrical plumbing and less valve porting may well be the reason...(??)

That is exactly the reason why I miss the 5th valve on my Amati 681 Bb. Plus the shift from 23 to 24 is really akward, but 23 to 235 easy peasy ...

Here is a good argument for a Bb 5 valved, thanks.

[matt g]

...
I agree completely that there could be some bias. I also think that the slow downfall of King/Conn has led to an increase of demand on other mXxranufacturers. Yamaha is simply too expensive compared to other brands and isn’t winning bids like they used to.

Interesting how a specific question again drifts off to the realms of assumptions and unrelated guessings.

Please lets get back to my question. Would for example a Cerveny 601 CC offer better intonation over a 601 Bb? ? Better alignment of partials?Assuming both have 5 valves, that is.

Are there trends in the different 5/4 size contrabass tubas with respect to response, intonation and partials if comparing similar models in CC or BB?

As told, I happily learn new fingerings, no problem.

When it comes to the older Kaiser tubas, generally the Bb versions offer better intonation because they were designed in that key then shortened to C. Makers like Miraphone have solved this problem, but I’m not sure about brands like Cerveny/Amati.

The other factor is simply the length of the tube/bugle involved. From my own experience, the more tubing in play, the more “lipable” the note. As such, a player with a good ear will likely sound more in tune out of the gate with a 18 foot long Bb.

All that being said, if you’re open to learning either set of fingerings, then keep your eyes/ears/mind open for whatever comes around that meets your overall requirements.

[DonO.]

...
I agree completely that there could be some bias. I also think that the slow downfall of King/Conn has led to an increase of demand on other mXxranufacturers. Yamaha is simply too expensive compared to other brands and isn’t winning bids like they used to.

Interesting how a specific question again drifts off to the realms of assumptions and unrelated guessings.

Please lets get back to my question. Would for example a Cerveny 601 CC offer better intonation over a 601 Bb? ? Better alignment of partials?Assuming both have 5 valves, that is.

Are there trends in the different 5/4 size contrabass tubas with respect to response, intonation and partials if comparing similar models in CC or BB?

As told, I happily learn new fingerings, no problem.

If we didn’t drift off topic, we wouldn’t be TubaForum!

If you want a direct answer to your query, here goes: The things is to invest in a quality brand, which would equal quality design, therefore superior intonation. It would be hard to go wrong with a Miraphone 1291! It checks all your boxes. If cost is a factor, perhaps not.