5V CC Tuba

[tobysima`]

Hello,
I was thinking of selling my M&M CC tuba for a new one because it has some pretty bad tuning issues. I was thinking of the Wessex Mahler or something else $3,000 or under. If either of the Mack CC tubas will be good enough for a performance major, I'd love to consider those as well.
Thank you for your help,
Toby

[KingTuba1241X]

Is the M&M horn still a JinBao built horn? I wonder why it's having that issue?

[tobysima`]

Is the M&M horn still a JinBao built horn? I wonder why it's having that issue?

It's a rebranded Schiller. I can only think that it was thought that since it looks fine, it plays fine, which isn't the case!
I'm definitely looking for something somewhat similar to the YBB-641, since I play really well on it, but I'm more comfortable on C tuba.

[matt g]

Put up a “want to buy” ad for a Mirafone 186/188 5V CC and list reasonable expectations. You can probably score one in decent shape around $4,000 in the current market if someone is looking to move an extra horn.

[tobysima`]

Put up a “want to buy” ad for a Mirafone 186/188 5V CC and list reasonable expectations. You can probably score one in decent shape around $4,000 in the current market if someone is looking to move an extra horn.

I would, but I sadly won't have that extra $1,000, so I'm limited to $3,000 and under.

[bort2.0]

Where do you live? Bet we could help find you something good, for around that budget...?

[jtm]

You might still post a “want to buy” ad for a Mirafone 186/188 5V CC, or similar, with your price limit, and see what comes up.

For example, I might offer my lovely Musica-branded B&S 5V CC for $3000 or less. It's not a 186, but it's about the same size, well made, good rotary valves, and very easy to play in tune, so it might address your problems. You'll probably get suggestions like that.

[tobysima`]

Where do you live? Bet we could help find you something good, for around that budget...?

Connecticut. I do wonder about how viable the Mack 3/4 CC with the 16" bell would be, but would much rather have something like the Wessex Mahler, since it's quite similar to the YBB-641.

[tobysima`]

You might still post a “want to buy” ad for a Mirafone 186/188 5V CC, or similar, with your price limit, and see what comes up.

For example, I might offer my lovely Musica-branded B&S 5V CC for $3000 or less. It's not a 186, but it's about the same size, well made, good rotary valves, and very easy to play in tune, so it might address your problems. You'll probably get suggestions like that.

I'll definitely talk to my teacher about that tuba.

[matt g]

Where do you live? Bet we could help find you something good, for around that budget...?

Connecticut. I do wonder about how viable the Mack 3/4 CC with the 16" bell would be, but would much rather have something like the Wessex Mahler, since it's quite similar to the YBB-641.

The issue with having an instrument that size as a college student is that it’s difficult to support a larger ensemble with those horns.

I had settled on a 188 in college as it did just about everything. I had an F tuba also, but it stayed in the case most of the time.

[tobysima`]

Where do you live? Bet we could help find you something good, for around that budget...?

Connecticut. I do wonder about how viable the Mack 3/4 CC with the 16" bell would be, but would much rather have something like the Wessex Mahler, since it's quite similar to the YBB-641.

The issue with having an instrument that size as a college student is that it’s difficult to support a larger ensemble with those horns.

I had settled on a 188 in college as it did just about everything. I had an F tuba also, but it stayed in the case most of the time.

I'd probably end up with the Wessex based on what my teacher thinks I should be playing on, and I'd assume it would be enough to support large ensembles.

[jtm]

Bloke has said the he held up a full orchestra with a 184.

[KingTuba1241X]

Bloke has said the he held up a full orchestra with a 184.

And Superman stopped a speeding locomotive

[tobysima`]

Bloke has said the he held up a full orchestra with a 184.

I think it's more similar in size to the 186, so I should be fine!

[the elephant]

Toby, this will be long, and it covers some information about Chinese tubas and their importers, and it covers my opinions about a cheap 186 CC and how to work that into your life.

First, it is not a re-branded Schiller. It is a Jin Bao. Jim Laabs Music (Schiller) imports the same, exact horn as M&M, Wessex, and Mack. They are all the same horn, with different engraving. Mack and Wessex manage to get the better ones, whereas M&M seems to buy and sell it sight unseen, as in they never bother to open and check the horns; Schiller is pretty much the same.

The Mahler is a tarted-up Jin Bao 410, and some of that bling is quite nice, but it is still a Jin Bao 410. They might be hand-picked or "built for them" in a corner of that monstrously large factory, but it is still a Jin Bao product. The 410 happens to be a very well done copy of a mid-1990s version of the Miraphone 186-5U CC tuba. It plays very well. The Mahler seems to receive a lot more attention to detail than the garden variety 410s. I would feel safe making a purchase from Wessex.

Mack also has horns carefully selected for him but they are the same, basic horn as all the non-Wessex 410s. I own one of these from 2015 and really like if for most things. The valves need regular attention to work really well, but other than that it is a point-and-shoot tuba that has more than paid for itself in five years of use. I would feel safe making a purchase from Mack Brass.

Schiller is the Jim Laabs Music house name for many imports from China and other Asian goods. They are liars and not to be trusted. The claim the horn is made in Germany. That is a bald-faced lie and is enough reason for me to avoid them altogether. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from Jim Laabs Music of any Schiller-branded instrument.

M&M seem to accet whatever gets sent to them from Jin Bao and several other factories in different cities. Their stock is wildly variable and feequently disappointing. They, like Laabs, import a lot of models that simply play badly. A purchase from them is a true crap-shoot. Throw your dice. Whatever is in the box is what you get. It's yours. And it is as likely to be broken or to play terribly as it is to be a good horn. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from M&M.

Also, that company in San Antonio that sells Jin Bao horns (Tempest?) lies out the old be-hind, too. They also sell Jin Bao horns and lie blatently about it to everyone about it. Do not trust them. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from them.

If you decide to get an excellent Jin Bao 410 you need to stick with Mack or Wessex as they both have proven their uality and trustworthiness over years of sales and survived years of "online discussion" in this and other communities. The 410 is an excellent copy of an excellent design (the venerable Miraphone 186), and these two companies will work to get you a fine example of one, since as good as the 410 might be you still are somewhat inconsistently produced. Careful selection is needed, and both Mack and Wessex do this work well and back up what they sell to you with great warranties.

I am not telling you to get one of the various flavors of Jin Bao 410 tubas, just passing on information to help you and others shop with some safety of getting what you want. If you live near to Jim Laabs Music it is a good deal as you can try stuff first and return it without the hassles and cost of shipping. They do have some very satisfied customers, but they were comparatively lucky, I believe. I would simply avoid M&M and Tempest if you can; their horns and customer service are not BAD, but the horns and the after-purchase service are — at best — unpredictable.

I agree with some of the above posters: Post an ad in the WTB forum for Miraphone 186 CC or even a 188 (larger and generally more expensive) or even an old Meinl-Weston 32 (the 32 has 5 valves, the 30 has four). Feel free to contact some of us if you have specific questions about what we post here, or ask direct questions in this thread. We all like to help when we can.

Keep in mind — regarding the MW 30 — it is hard to add a 5th valve to after the fact. I would probably avoid these unless you are comfortable allowing your tech design a 5th slide circuit, because the 1st slides on the 30 and 32 are very different. The 32 is set up for a 5th valve, and he 30 uses a more conventional 1st slide that will not allow a factory 32's 5th slide to fit; you have to design your own, which is actually not all that hard to do.

It is far easier to have a tech purchase all the parts needed to add a 5th valve to a 186-4U CC tuba. While adding a valve usually costs about $1500 to $2000 for parts and labor (not including shipping) it can be done later when you have more money. I just added a 5th to my 1971 186 CC and it suffered no ill effects. In fact, it pretty much rocks. ;-) The prices I suggested are pretty good, too. All the parts needed to build an authentic Miraphone 5th valve at my dealer cost would be over $1300 right now. Used parts and non-Miraphone parts can be sourced for less. The work takes anywhere from six to ten hours, depending on how experienced your chosen tech is at doing this. (Hint: it is not as plug-and-play as many think.) If I were to do this I would charge about $2750 because, while I do great work, I am not as fast as others, and I do not stock anything, so all parts would have to come from Germany, brand new. Others can do the work much more inexpensively, some quite well, and some not so well.

This has been an attempt to give you information to help you make a decision. For example, an old, small-belled 186 from the 1970s might be fairly beat looking but actually be easy to repair. If it only has four valves the price for such a horn is pretty low. You could get one for about your budget (perhaps a bit less or a bit more) and sit on that for a while as it is, learning to work with just the four valves, which is an excellent idea anyway, and then spend some bucks to get it really nicely fixed up. Later on you could then add that additional valve. So you get a very good tuba for not much, then spend more on it over time as you can afford it.

This is what I did and have done many times in the past.

Good luck with your search.

[tobysima`]

Toby, this will be long, and it covers some information about Chinese tubas and their importers, and it covers my opinions about a cheap 186 CC and how to work that into your life.

First, it is not a re-branded Schiller. It is a Jin Bao. Jim Laabs Music (Schiller) imports the same, exact horn as M&M, Wessex, and Mack. They are all the same horn, with different engraving. Mack and Wessex manage to get the better ones, whereas M&M seems to buy and sell it sight unseen, as in they never bother to open and check the horns; Schiller is pretty much the same.

The Mahler is a tarted-up Jin Bao 410, and some of that bling is quite nice, but it is still a Jin Bao 410. They might be hand-picked or "built for them" in a corner of that monstrously large factory, but it is still a Jin Bao product. The 410 happens to be a very well done copy of a mid-1990s version of the Miraphone 186-5U CC tuba. It plays very well. The Mahler seems to receive a lot more attention to detail than the garden variety 410s. I would feel safe making a purchase from Wessex.

Mack also has horns carefully selected for him but they are the same, basic horn as all the non-Wessex 410s. I own one of these from 2015 and really like if for most things. The valves need regular attention to work really well, but other than that it is a point-and-shoot tuba that has more than paid for itself in five years of use. I would feel safe making a purchase from Mack Brass.

Schiller is the Jim Laabs Music house name for many imports from China and other Asian goods. They are liars and not to be trusted. The claim the horn is made in Germany. That is a bald-faced lie and is enough reason for me to avoid them altogether. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from Jim Laabs Music of any Schiller-branded instrument.

M&M seem to accet whatever gets sent to them from Jin Bao and several other factories in different cities. Their stock is wildly variable and feequently disappointing. They, like Laabs, import a lot of models that simply play badly. A purchase from them is a true crap-shoot. Throw your dice. Whatever is in the box is what you get. It's yours. And it is as likely to be broken or to play terribly as it is to be a good horn. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from M&M.

Also, that company in San Antonio that sells Jin Bao horns (Tempest?) lies out the old be-hind, too. They also sell Jin Bao horns and lie blatently about it to everyone about it. Do not trust them. I would NOT feel safe making a purchase from them.

If you decide to get an excellent Jin Bao 410 you need to stick with Mack or Wessex as they both have proven their uality and trustworthiness over years of sales and survived years of "online discussion" in this and other communities. The 410 is an excellent copy of an excellent design (the venerable Miraphone 186), and these two companies will work to get you a fine example of one, since as good as the 410 might be you still are somewhat inconsistently produced. Careful selection is needed, and both Mack and Wessex do this work well and back up what they sell to you with great warranties.

I am not telling you to get one of the various flavors of Jin Bao 410 tubas, just passing on information to help you and others shop with some safety of getting what you want. If you live near to Jim Laabs Music it is a good deal as you can try stuff first and return it without the hassles and cost of shipping. They do have some very satisfied customers, but they were comparatively lucky, I believe. I would simply avoid M&M and Tempest if you can; their horns and customer service are not BAD, but the horns and the after-purchase service are — at best — unpredictable.

I agree with some of the above posters: Post an ad in the WTB forum for Miraphone 186 CC or even a 188 (larger and generally more expensive) or even an old Meinl-Weston 32 (the 32 has 5 valves, the 30 has four). Feel free to contact some of us if you have specific questions about what we post here, or ask direct questions in this thread. We all like to help when we can.

Keep in mind — regarding the MW 30 — it is hard to add a 5th valve to after the fact. I would probably avoid these unless you are comfortable allowing your tech design a 5th slide circuit, because the 1st slides on the 30 and 32 are very different. The 32 is set up for a 5th valve, and he 30 uses a more conventional 1st slide that will not allow a factory 32's 5th slide to fit; you have to design your own, which is actually not all that hard to do.

It is far easier to have a tech purchase all the parts needed to add a 5th valve to a 186-4U CC tuba. While adding a valve usually costs about $1500 to $2000 for parts and labor (not including shipping) it can be done later when you have more money. I just added a 5th to my 1971 186 CC and it suffered no ill effects. In fact, it pretty much rocks. ;-) The prices I suggested are pretty good, too. All the parts needed to build an authentic Miraphone 5th valve at my dealer cost would be over $1300 right now. Used parts and non-Miraphone parts can be sourced for less. The work takes anywhere from six to ten hours, depending on how experienced your chosen tech is at doing this. (Hint: it is not as plug-and-play as many think.) If I were to do this I would charge about $2750 because, while I do great work, I am not as fast as others, and I do not stock anything, so all parts would have to come from Germany, brand new. Others can do the work much more inexpensively, some quite well, and some not so well.

This has been an attempt to give you information to help you make a decision. For example, an old, small-belled 186 from the 1970s might be fairly beat looking but actually be easy to repair. If it only has four valves the price for such a horn is pretty low. You could get one for about your budget (perhaps a bit less or a bit more) and sit on that for a while as it is, learning to work with just the four valves, which is an excellent idea anyway, and then spend some bucks to get it really nicely fixed up. Later on you could then add that additional valve. So you get a very good tuba for not much, then spend more on it over time as you can afford it.

This is what I did and have done many times in the past.

Good luck with your search.

I do currently have an M&M, and I am not satisfied with it. The sound is fine, but the tuning is AWFUL. I figured that since Schiller carries the EXACT same instrument, that I shouldn't trust them either. I trust Wessex and Mack, since I have studied with people who have ties to the companies, but I'm not sure about which bell size would fit me better. I do want to be able to drag the horn through a tuba performance major.

[jtm]

.... I do want to be able to drag the horn through a tuba performance major.

A lot can happen in those years. If nothing else, you'll have chances to play other instruments and meet people who can help you find what suits you best. So get something that will start you in the right direction with some confidence. If you find you want something else in two years, then trade up.

[tobysima`]

A lot can happen in those years. If nothing else, you'll have chances to play other instruments and meet people who can help you find what suits you best. So get something that will start you in the right direction with some confidence. If you find you want something else in two years, then trade up.

Definitely gonna sell that M&M for a new horn then.

[matt g]

There’s a MW32/33 CC listed on this forum for a fair price.

Understanding that money is tough, the price this horn is listed for was a fair price 20 years ago. The 4/4 German-made rotary valve CC tuba has been pretty flat since the Asian clones came on the scene and at the same time German makes started offering more piston valve options. But these German (emphasized) tubas are well built, easy to work on, and have great playing qualities. Wade offered good advice above negotiating the Asian makes. I’d see if you could get a little more money and wait a little longer and you might strike gold on the used market.

[Ace]

I purchased a Schiller 410 CC tuba from Laabs. Completely satisfied with the instrument. Very good intonation. Construction was good quality, equal to or better than the several Mirafones I have owned. Mack brass sells a 410 also. Under $2,000 as I recall. And, great return policies. A good 410 CC tuba can easily take you through your undergrad years.

Ace