6/4 glut

[humBell]

Is "winner" a 6/4 word?

To go further off topic*, i auditioned for first time (on an instrument) and i was informed unfortunately they could not offer me a position at this time. I wonder if my playing a wee 3/3 eb had anything to do with it?





*sadly, my argumentivity needs work.

[Doc]

Is "winner" a 6/4 word?

No, but it’s a world-class term.

[bloke]

The only other type of job where "winner" is used - that I can think of - is elections, and the overwhelming majority of election winners are crooked and incompetent, so I think it doesn't need to be used in relation to hires for musician positions.

[dp]

rave:
The main glut is merchants and distributors selling the damn things.
But close behind are all the "studio" poseur teachers recruiting
and co-signing band parent check-writing instead of producing audition-winning players.
Reminds me of 20 faculty members occupying "art schools" at state colleges and universities...
and frankly its really no more valuable than gender studies or any number of things I won't be able to mention here in another year or two

A real interesting thread would be titled "tuba studio glut" ...
a "merchant glut" as a topic? not so much. In a lot of very real ways,
the freak jury are responsible for this generation of button-pushing check-writing kids.
Co-signing cheap Shirt horn marketing in the old tube net sandbox just spawned a consumer group hell-bent on buying Shirt no one needs
and sure enough there were folks rushing to make a buck off of this perceived market. Meanwhile the majority
of up and coming players were slowly developing into a ripe consumer market. Without seeing the connection
today we have a 6 page thread decrying a big horn glut.
Sure, theres a lot of bubbies and cimbassi out there owned by hobby players entitled to toy ownership,
but when the demand for those novelties slowed, the factories and workforce that 20 years ago was building lawn chairs
started producing "really respectable 6/4 tubas" ...and 4/4 and 5/4 and so on and on and on. Take the bad with "the good"...I guess

[tubatodd]

Glad I searched the forum, because I was going to ask this very question. Lots of great feedback.

I also was one of the nameless faces in the late 90s that @the elephant spoke about who had a 2165. I tried one at Dillon Music and immediately traded in my Kalison DS on the spot. I was only there for the Kalison to be cleaned and "Matt-Walters-ified." It was the tone of the 2165 that got me. My mom was there with me and she (not a musician) could immediately tell a difference. I had 2165-fever.

Back then, I was the only one in my tuba studio with a 6/4 horn. But to be honest, I fought that tuba the next 2-3 years of ownership before a) graduating and b) trading it in for a newfangled Conn 56J. The Conn was an absolute joy to play.

Fast forward 20-25 years and 3 tubas (one of which was....wait for it.....another 2165 .....another was......wait for it again.......a Conn 52J ) later, I've learned that a) I had no business playing a 2165 and b) I really should play/own whatever horn truly suites me and c) I am not (a software engineer) playing in a professional orchestra.

With several orchestra gigs, including the LA Phil, won by players on a B&S PT6, why has there not been a rotary PT 6 clone from any of the Chinese manufacturers? The closest thing was the Wiseman PT6P clone.

[bloke]

Besides being able to get around on them - and the inherent sonic characteristics not being hopelessly "covered", tubas need to be able to be played in tune without the effort(s) to do so being so distracting that a player can never really concentrate on the music...
...a flat lower open G, a sharp upper open G, a 1st valve D which is still flat pushed in all the way, pitches above middle C which require playing them on the 12th partial, maybe even an E and an E-flat in the staff which call for 1-2 and 2-3...
...That's a whole bunch of messin' around...(even if only Chino-priced)

' nuff said.

[Mary Ann]

If I can back up a 40 piece band on an NStar and be told it carries exceptionally well, seems like a normal huge-sized tuba player should be able to do most everything on a 4/4. The first 184 I had, I was told it was the one Torchinsky played in whatever orchestra he was in. Whether or not that was true, it does indicate that size isn't the most important thing. Although that recent video of that 6/4 Kaiser was just so cool, you wouldn't use that for Debussy.

[Sousaswag]

Yall have seen my recent 2165 stuff all over the place here or on FB… I can only imagine what a herd of those with none of the right changes would play like. Actually, I can… They’re just hard to play!

Once you make things smaller, the 2165 becomes a much more manageable instrument.

But yeah… Most of us don’t really NEED one. I heard someone playing a 188 in the Chicago Civic a number of years ago and I thought it sounded *amazing*

I read somewhere earlier in here that usually adults can achieve what many can’t on the 6/4, and I’d tend to agree. It just comes with playing experience that young players lack.

[bloke]

yeah...In my other post (above) I said enough about "many of those instruments", but I do have a comment about PLAYERS.

If someone is ONLY accustomed to playing one size/length/model of tuba - and picks up something considerably larger/smaller/longer/shorter/different - they might NOT possibly sound/do particularly well...at least at first, likely because they are trying to play a very different tuba just like they play the one to which they are accustomed. (Imagine picking up a bass and playing it just as if one is playing a cello...or picking up a baritone saxophone and played it just as if it's an alto or tenor.)

Most of us - who own a very large contrabass tuba - and (after not having played it for a while) picked up our F tuba (particularly JUST AFTER having played the huge contrabass)...Well...How did it sound at first? (yeah: BLAAAAAHHH BLAAAAAAHH BLAAAAAAHH, etc...and then we REMEMBERED "oh yeah...F tuba"...)

[Grumpikins]

Not to argue the topic; But, a couple years ago I played a concert with a bunch tunes that were really heavy in the low brass section and that was the first time i felt like my 4/4 2145 was buried. There is definitely a limit to presence on this horn. In that situation a larger horn, 2155, 2165 would have been appropriate.

However, i agree that most of the time that's not neccessary.

A second note, maybe requireing college kids to use school owned tubas (appropriately sized and properly maintained) for at least the first two years would be beneficial. You have your own tuba, that's nice, your going to use ours for all your coursework until later. Level the playing field. Focus on fundamentals. Then branch out to other sizes and keys. Just a thought.

[bloke]

I'm not trying to get personal about your experience and absolutely am not attempting to coach you in any way, but I'm tending to wonder if you may have possibly put a great big deep cup mouthpiece on the 2145. Just to avoid using flowery speech and - if favor of being blunt to be brief, if that's what you were using, I wonder how much of the potential resonance of that instrument wasn't used ...ie. was canceled. Of course you may tell me that you used something that was shallow and featured a fairly small throat and backbore, and then I'll just have to shrug my shoulders.

Twice, I've already posted a link to the Finale of the Organ Symphony where the tuba could clearly be heard when the organ was making all the racket that it could possibly make, and it was an F tuba with a small mouthpipe and a small mouthpiece, yet it sounded like a (not "blatty") tuba...and - well - "broad".

...so (again) I'm a believer that timbre is one of the most important aspects of sonority, and sometimes a larger instrument (or particular models of larger instruments) - or certainly a larger mouthpiece - can kill some of the aspects of timbre which are most helpful...

...key word: sometimes
also EXTREMELY important: I know that I DON'T know much.

[tubatodd]

@bloke is describing what bass guitar players refer to as "sitting in the mix." Do you have the tone and volume to be heard with everything else going on? Sometimes the tone you need has more overtones than what you would ordinarily use for an isolated sound

[Grumpikins]

You are correct in assuming that I was using a large mp. It is a tuba exchange Rose model. There currently is one for sale on reverb. It is large and deep. I am looking for a different mp to use as it has been 24 years since I was in college and my playing/needs/physical anatomy have changed. That mp is like trying to drive a monster truck downtown. Just silly. A friend is loaning me 6 to try for a couple weeks.

[Mary Ann]

Back to the comparison with horns -- I like my sound up close (my ears) with a deeper cup, but I do not think the sound carries as well as a more shallow one that may sound "too bright" up close. And with my tiny lung capacity I just have to agree with the smaller throat size -- too bad we cannot order custom throat sizes to match our air capacity. You big guys would probably suffer "air backup" with a throat size that works for me, OR -- heh, find out you can play longer phrases without having to breathe!

[donn]

Speaking as an tuba bulletin board engineer (*), I'd like to see some slightly more rigorous connection between mouthpiece throat size and the volume of air that may pass while playing. I mean, sure, we know that a smaller aperture will restrict air flow, but it seems to me we're talking a couple of millimeters, and after that the simple aperture:throughput difference will drop off pretty fast. And accordingly, if you pick up a mouthpiece and blow some air in it, you can exhaust your lung capacity in a jiffy no matter what the mouthpiece.

I'm not going to say mouthpieces don't differ in this respect, but then I'm not sure they do - if you allow the performer to do whatever it takes to play the mouthpiece efficiently. Another way to put that: one player may find a mouthpiece takes a lot of air, another might not. The differences that are involved in this effect, could very well include smaller throats, so we might end up finding that smaller throats do take less air, for some people. Even though there's no obvious physical reason for it.

(My job title, long ago when I had one, did indeed include the word "Engineer", but it was a case like "Sanitary Engineer" that made a mockery of the traditional modern engineering profession with respect to credentials of various sorts. I acquired no certifications of any kind, and in fact had practically no formal education in the discipline. But on the internet, what the hell, who cares?)

[MiBrassFS]

Back to the comparison with horns -- I like my sound up close (my ears) with a deeper cup, but I do not think the sound carries as well as a more shallow one that may sound "too bright" up close. And with my tiny lung capacity I just have to agree with the smaller throat size -- too bad we cannot order custom throat sizes to match our air capacity. You big guys would probably suffer "air backup" with a throat size that works for me, OR -- heh, find out you can play longer phrases without having to breathe!

This point of up close vs out in the hall is an important and often/usually ignored point. For example, I’ve heard some great players up close with a bit of dirt in their sound, but they sure did sound great out in the hall. These are names that are probably recognized by many, too.

Sometimes we fall in love with our sound, but really need to think about if it does the actual job it needs to do.

[bloke]

listening:

This might not make very good sense or I might not be expressing it very clearly, but - when I'm working in an orchestra - I listen up close when I'm playing chords with the trombones, and/yet listen to how I sound out in the hall when I'm playing bass lines underneath the entire orchestra.
...yeah... I also listen up close when I'm playing stuff with the basses... it's rude as hell to drown them out or to not match their style or certainly to not match their tuning.

The lady who's currently playing principal bass in one of the orchestras I work with is someone with whom I chat from time to time, and ask her if I'm stepping on any of their stuff. She knows that I don't want her patronizing me, and she continues to tell me that I'm not stepping on their lines. She does admit that - when things get really loud - she/they interpret where the beat is from where I putt it, and I guess that makes sense.

[gocsick]

Just saw a posting about the Winner of the Met Opera spot: Hiroshi Nakatchi on a Nirschl York.

Just another datapoint for the discussion.

[MiBrassFS]

listening:

This might not make very good sense or I might not be expressing it very clearly, but - when I'm working in an orchestra - I listen up close when I'm playing chords with the trombones, and/yet listen to how I sound out in the hall when I'm playing bass lines underneath the entire orchestra.
...yeah... I also listen up close when I'm playing stuff with the basses... it's rude as hell to drown them out or to not match their style or certainly to not match their tuning.

The the lady who's currently playing principal bass in one of the orchestras I work with is someone with whom I chat from time to time, and ask her if I'm stepping on any of their stuff. She knows that I don't want her patronizing me, and she continues to tell me that I'm not stepping on their lines. She does admit that - when things get really loud - she/they interpret where the beat is from where I putt it, and I guess that makes sense.

That’s another very important and often overlooked kind of “up close vs out in the hall,” and, to me, expressed perfectly. The other is quality of sound, this is use of sound. Both are important and seem to rarely or effectively addressed by people teaching in music schools. Maybe it is more of a finishing school concept, but it sure is important if playing with others. I have to believe knowing about both would make you more welcome in any group.

Maybe these two concepts deserve their own threads! Nice!

Side note: there’s a video floating around that features a dear friend of mine with whom I attended undergrad. In it, he talks about “things they didn’t teach you in music school.” It was done for “Jazz at Lincoln Center.” These two concepts above qualify under that heading.

[peterbas]

.