Rudolf Meinl vs

[Sabut]

Hello all and happy holidays.

I was just wondering if anyone has had the luck to compare a Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC tuba vs an Eastman 836 or a Nirschl York and what they thought of them? I might be starting a tuba search soon and these are at the top of my list. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[Sabut]

I’ve not played those back to back, but i have played a RM 5/4 CC and Nirschl York in the past. Completely different feel and sound.

[Sousaswag]

Good luck FINDING a Rudy for sale. They’ve become rarer these days.

I’ve never played them back to back, but to me, the Rudy is just more “work” to play than the York whatevers. (Insert clone name here).

It’s been so long that I can’t comment on intonation, but I think in part of the Rudy’s size and the large leadpipe, it felt like an air hog to me, but it sure made a GORGEOUS sound, and if you stepped on it, it had more to give.

If I remember correctly, I believe bloke put a smaller leadpipe on one of those 5/4 Rudy’s. Every mod he makes certainly has a lot of thought behind it; I’m sure that was a huge help.

[bloke]

I've owned the former - with five valves and a second slide trigger.
I've played the latter.

What sorts of comparisons are you seeking?

I've also owned the 3/4 and 4/4 models of RM and counterintuitively, the 5/4 one was the easiest to play in tune.

[BRS]

.

[bort2.0]

There's a YouTube channel for a guy in Australia his name is Steve Rosse. I actually think he's American, but he lives and plays in Australia.

He has several videos comparing his Rudy 5/4 to a Nirschl 6/4.

Some of the point of this comparisons was B flat versus C, but I think the style of the tuba makes more difference than the key.

Honestly, I didn't get a lot from the videos myself, which I watched when I was getting my own Rudy 5/4. He's a great player and has a lot of insight and experience beyond what I will ever have, but I think the recordings themselves don't portray the reality of the sound. Small room, whatever kind of microphone he had, I don't know, it just didn't make a whole lot of impact for me.

[Sabut]

I've owned the former - with five valves and a second slide trigger.
I've played the latter.

What sorts of comparisons are you seeking?

I've also owned the 3/4 and 4/4 models of RM and counterintuitively, the 5/4 one was the easiest to play in tune.

Hey Bloke,

Thanks for your response. These might be real general thoughts and questions but I was wondering in your ears when laying the foundation in a section was one easier/“better” than the other. Has anyone ever given you insight to what both horns sound like out in the hall? I know people describe the York copy’s as having the “York” sound. Does the 5/4 Rudy sound like that or would you say it’s more of a darker Bb-ish sound? With Rudy’s reputation for being huge is the Rudy a lot heavier than a York copy? I’m not a large person but I do play with a tuba rest. If someone forced you to pick one would it be a York copy or the Rudy?

I’ve played on a great example of a 3/4 for a year and loved it. But at the time I moved from a Miraphone 184 to it. Thanks again for your response!

[Sabut]

There's a YouTube channel for a guy in Australia his name is Steve Rosse. I actually think he's American, but he lives and plays in Australia.

He has several videos comparing his Rudy 5/4 to a Nirschl 6/4.

Some of the point of this comparisons was B flat versus C, but I think the style of the tuba makes more difference than the key.

Honestly, I didn't get a lot from the videos myself, which I watched when I was getting my own Rudy 5/4. He's a great player and has a lot of insight and experience beyond what I will ever have, but I think the recordings themselves don't portray the reality of the sound. Small room, whatever kind of microphone he had, I don't know, it just didn't make a whole lot of impact for me.

Thank you! I’ll check it out. Any videos on Rudys are so few and far in between it’s worth a listen.

[Sabut]

Good luck FINDING a Rudy for sale. They’ve become rarer these days.

I’ve never played them back to back, but to me, the Rudy is just more “work” to play than the York whatevers. (Insert clone name here).

It’s been so long that I can’t comment on intonation, but I think in part of the Rudy’s size and the large leadpipe, it felt like an air hog to me, but it sure made a GORGEOUS sound, and if you stepped on it, it had more to give.

If I remember correctly, I believe bloke put a smaller leadpipe on one of those 5/4 Rudy’s. Every mod he makes certainly has a lot of thought behind it; I’m sure that was a huge help.

Thanks! I’ve been looking for a Rudy for a hot minute and I’m not holding my breath. I saw Thomann brings int he 5/4Bb but I’d prefer the C.

[bloke]

@Sabut

The Rudy 5/4 sound is less "pretty", more easily distinguishable as an individual voice of the orchestra, but more work to play.
They do not offer an "Alexander" sound, but - rather - a "Rudy" sound.
A (quite good, but very opinionated, quite biased, and not fond particularly of me - as I'm a southerner) music director didn't particularly like the sound, but - guess what? - he also was the music director of another orchestra whereby the tuba player played a York knock-off.
There is a lost post from the "old place" where I showed how I (got very brave and) cut my RM 5/4 mouthpipe just past the bell (just as Meinl-Weston 20 and 25 tubas featured mouthpipes which were two-piece and soldered together at the same spot), made the small end of the mouthpipe (which wraps around the bell) detachable, and then made an ALTERNATE/interchangeable piece (which bolted up flush, but tapered down considerably smaller to the mouthpiece receiver. I'm fairly convinced that the two were sonically indistinguishable (once the player became accustomed to either) but the smaller one was far less work to play...
...someone may (??) have saved those pics...(not me)...maybe in the "Klaus" pic's or the current owner of that tuba may have saved them.
I believe that - these days - those tubas are made with mouthpipes more similar to the equivalent of my smaller one...Of course, the large end still has to be .865"...

I find my Miraphone 98 to be a "hybrid", as the bell (including length and everything) seems to be very close to identical in taper to a Holton 345 bell...so its sonic characteristics are a bit European-kaiser-ish and a bit American-6/4-ish...but less "blobby/fluffy" than the C versions of the American 6/4's, being that the 98 is a B-flat. Indeed, the Holton 345 B-flats offer a more appealing characteristic sound than the C versions...whether those C 345's are factory or cut-downs...

bloke "All of my posts are way too long...It's because I'm an actual 'typist', and they don't take very long to type...' sorry!"

[bort2.0]

I regret selling my Rudy 5/4BBb... The sound was incredible, and I miss it very much.

[bloke]

Hey...
Someone on facebook (NOT ME) just-now commented on a SEVERAL years ago pic that I took of my RM 5/4, one day.

The colors look surreal (??)

This was original lacquer.

I bought it in sorta beat-up shape, and did a bunch of tedious work on it (no unsoldering).

The was obviously before I did the mouthpipe thing to it.



Here's another picture that a clarinet player took...a polka band gig at a casino, waiting for time to play.
I remember him saying, "Wow! Look at the size of that tuba" and pulling out his phone.

[Sabut]

@bloke

Thanks for your reply and insight. You message isn't too long. I like reading all that information. I'd rather have an essay than a sentence Thank you again!

I noticed the flair of the Rudy bell is like no other (that I've seen) and definitely different than York style tubas. Does that add a lot to its sound characteristic?

Your Rudy looks great in those photos. If anything it's making me want one more just to be "unique" lol.

[Rick Denney]

...
I noticed the flair of the Rudy bell is like no other (that I've seen) and definitely different than York style tubas. Does that add a lot to its sound characteristic?
...

I'm not Bloke, but I believe so, at least in part. I suspect the classic Rudi bell shape is a result of how he makes them, and it just worked out the way he hoped.

I like the Rudi sound. As Joe says, it's not an Alexander sound, but it's still firmly in the Power Sound camp. A good friend who comes here from time to time professionally played a Miraphone 186 C with five valves for basically everything. He bought it in the 70's and he still plays it. But he needed something with a bit more obvious horsepower for playing with the symphony, where he subbed from time to time. At an Army conference at least 15 years ago, we found a 5/4 Rudi with four valves that was in his price range because it lacked the fifth valve. It took him a while to dial in the intonation and the blow, but some months after that he reported playing a big work with the symphony and for the first time getting expressions of approval on the size and quality of the sound generally from the brass section. It's a real orchestral tuba that can hold its own with anything, but like all of them it has its quirks and makes its own set of demands on the player.

Here that tuba is next to my Holton BB-345 (the latter pre-Joe going-over).



Rick "among the last of the great German tuba makers" Denney

[bloke]

@Sabut

I find that the big Rudy shape is a bit like the old big Conn (not 20J, but decades earlier) bell flair shape.

[Sabut]

@Rick Denney

Thanks for your response. The Rudy looks massive next to the already massive Holton!

[Sabut]

@bloke

I guess now the hardest part of trying to find one to buy/play will be the challenge. I'd have to sell my current tuba as well. Unless anyone wants to trade lol.

[bloke]

I don't dislike RM tubas, but I've owned all three sizes with five valves in C length, and I'm personally sort of over them.

I believe - as people get older, they get over a lot of stuff. They figure out what they like more and what they like less. Younger people will judge them as grumpy and set in their ways, but what they don't realize is that the older people have looked into most of the things that the younger people are looking at, and have already made their personal decisions based on experience. It's not that all old people make the same decisions about the same things, but they all make their own decisions and - at a certain point - pretty much stick with them, typically.

I'm not stuck on certain brands and models, but I'm unstuck on certain ones. I am stuck on a couple of requirements for tubas (which have nothing to do with size or length, and not even - within pretty wide parameters - sonic characteristics). I just made a really wild change later in my life, but what some people realize is that I've been thinking (and openly talking) about it for a decade.
It's just that desire and pricing never met, until recently.

New models of tubas are introduced from time to time, but - for quite a while - most all of the newer models seem to be based on a theme. The theme is to put together something that will very easily produce (not a wonderful, but) marketable sound - whether or not the player has a nice sounding embouchure buzz, a very short learning curve to achieve this (such as three minutes in an elephant room, etc.), and the trade-off typically being a requirement of extra physical work to play most of the newer models. The idea seems to be that all tubas need to be set up for a uni-approach to playing, rather than each tuba requiring less work but - rather - a particular type of work from its player. This seems true with most newer models, and particularly true with newer models built in F length.

[aarongsmith]

I have had the opportunity to play my Rudy next to a Yama-york, an Eastman EBC836S, MW Baer 6450/2, and a new Adams 6/4 CC. The only ones that came close to me were the Baer and the Adams. It's a unique sound amongst the York clones, but has a color, presence, and projection that most except the MW 6450 and Adams can match. The Baer was really great example that was at Baltimore Brass for a very short time and I believe Buddy Rogers ended up with the Adams after the Army Workshop last year. Either horn was fantastic, but not better enough to warrant trading/selling my horn and spending the wad of cash. The Yama-york was one of the best tubas I've ever played and had that York sound that so many lust over, but I like the grit of the Rudy. Also, I don't really want $40k in debt on top of my mortgage.
It has been said here before, but the Rudy 5/4 CC is the most 188 like 6/4 out there and that's what I like about it. Mine has battle scars from the previous owner(s), but it's still a great horn. It has some small modifications from Martin Wilk and an AGR replace the wallowed out end of the lead pipe. The big mod that Martin did was reversing the 3rd and 4th valves to turn the same direction as the top two, like a Miraphone Firebird. I've played an unmodified version and loved it almost as much fwiw.

I've played a couple of Nirschl 6/4's and I have found that you really should only consider one that you are able to play and inspect prior to purchase. They seem to be somewhat inconsistent, but even the mediocre examples are still pretty nice.

The Eastman tuba have gotten better and sound great. Frankly it is hard to find a new, 6/4 tuba in that price point that plays as well. Plus if you shop somewhere that is willing to make a deal, the price can get even better. Plus I've found that Eastman really stands behind their product as a customer and dealer.

[bloke]

My RM 5/4 had a goofy mouthpiece receiver as well. I'm guessing that all from an earlier era may have. My solution was too grab my jarno taper reamer, assume that the metal at the very end was at least that's thick as the rest of the mouthpipe tube (as the receiver is actually formed from the mouthpipe tube itself and covered with an overpart), and I reamed the back of that sharply tapered receiver out until both the opening and the back end we're touching the reamer, at which point I could use a Euro shank mouthpiece. It hurts my heart to cut off hand formed rotary tuba receivers - which are made of the mouthpipe tube itself, and then stick on a solder-on mouthpiece receiver, whether plain or high tech. Matt thinks that I hate his adjustable gap receivers. I don't hate them at all, but it's just that I don't like cutting off hand-formed receivers, and replacing them with anything in particular.