The QUEST for a Great Cerveny CCB601-4 CC tuba

[Shawn]

Okay,
I got the tuba soldered back together this morning. The results are very promising but I want to play it over a couple days to make sure I'm not lipping it more in-tune in a placebo effect.
Details to follow in a few days. Cutting .9" off the dog leg and .8" off the large side of that smaller branch that includes a dog leg was great. I now play A=440 with about a 3/4" slide pull. Perfect.

How's it coming?

[pjv]

Okay,
I got the tuba soldered back together this morning. The results are very promising but I want to play it over a couple days to make sure I'm not lipping it more in-tune in a placebo effect.
Details to follow in a few days. Cutting .9" off the dog leg and .8" off the large side of that smaller branch that includes a dog leg was great. I now play A=440 with about a 3/4" slide pull. Perfect.

Nice post. Thanks!
You wouldn't by chance be into posting pictures as to exactly where you did the cutting? I'm having problems visualising this.
Thanks.

[Shawn]

+1 for pictures...

[Matt Walters]

Pictures....... Is it EASY to post pictures? Is there a tutorial for how to post pictures for someone like me that is computer challenged? I could never do it on that TubeNet because of sizing, etc. I had to have coworkers help me. I know how to take a picture on my phone and email it to myself so I can save it on the computer and then attach it to an email. I select medium size for the pictures to send on my iPhone. Any other sizing and tricks are computer skills I don't have. I'm still waiting for computers to actually get user friendly. i.e. Imagine Star Trek where I can say, "Computer, do what I want without me needing to spend hours learning how to do something new and memorizing yet another password, etc." There is just no love between computers and myself. Other people have witnessed computers not working right when I do the exact same thing someone else did and the computer worked for them. Anyway.......

CERVENY CCB601-4: I took the leadpipe off this morning and buffed the old lacquer off it to take a good look. There were two small red rot/cracks at the seam and two red rot dots that were worse than any others. The leadpipe apears to have been made from seam stock instead of drawn tube.
So I silver soldered those 4 spots. They weren't leaks yet but I don't want to deal with patching them 5-10 years from now. Then while the pipe was soaking in the acid solution to get rid of the Fluoride paste I used for the silver solder, I de-burred the knuckle going into the 1st valve. I scrubbed out my leadpipe and began my day at the shop.
After work, I filed the excess silver solder off, then fine sanded the areas smooth and re-buffed. Tomorrow I might solder the pipe back on or I might silver solder one more particular red rot spot I noticed. There are several more little red rot spots started but my body chemistry seems to be easy on brass.

[Tubajug]

I'm curious, when you say you silver solder the red rod spots, do you drill them out and then fill with silver solder? Or silver solder over the top of them? Or something else entirely?

As a "home" repair hack, this intrigues me.

Thanks!

[Matt Walters]

When I silver solder things such as cracks and red rot, I push in the area to be filled, SLIGHTLY. That way there can be silver solder left when I file, sand (400 grit or finer) and buff the repair smooth. I was lucky that I got to these before they actually became holes. You can fill small holes with silver solder, it takes a bit of finesse with the solder and torch.

[bloke]

My least favorite silver brazing is any sheet brass silver brazing (mouthpipes, bells, etc...though slide bows are always much easier than mouthpipes and bells for some reason).
I’d wager that Matt is a lot better at it than I am.
Today, I had to braze back together a little 1/4“ x 1/4” right-angular crack in one of those ancient 19-inch York bell flares. Thankfully, I got the temperature just right, nothing moved, and the
silver solder dropped right into place.
Maybe (??) the silver brazing gods were with me...this time.

[Matt Walters]

Maybe (??) the silver brazing gods were with me...this time.

Or maybe you don't give yourself enough credit. Those bells are looking great.

[bloke]

I'd love to check out that big mama - when you've decided that you've done all you're doing to do to it.
I'll probably be as far north as you, next month, but (unfortunately) about 400 miles west.
I've never played one of those that was really set up properly, and have only done rudimentary (ie. "Please fix this one thing", etc.) repairs on a few of them, over the years...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooPBXfnIpYI

[hrender]

Re: putting photos in posts: You can either attach photos (usually there's a limit on the size and number of photos you can attach), or you can share them somewhere and embed a link to them in your post:

• Open an account with a photo sharing service. I've used Flickr and Dropbox at the free level, both are good. With an iPhone you can share photos from your iCloud account, but it appears they're only available for a month.
• Upload the photos you want to share. Make sure they have public access, i.e. anyone can get to them.
• Get the URL of the photo file(s) you want to share, and embed them in your post, i.e.

  Code: Select all

  [img]https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-rfj6008uj6/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/19478/232306/1__15117.1594990338.jpg[/img]

Note that the above img link shows up as the following when you look at the post:



Cool tuba, by the way.

[Doc]

Pictures....... Is it EASY to post pictures? Is there a tutorial for how to post pictures for someone like me that is computer challenged? I could never do it on that TubeNet because of sizing, etc. I had to have coworkers help me. I know how to take a picture on my phone and email it to myself so I can save it on the computer and then attach it to an email. I select medium size for the pictures to send on my iPhone. Any other sizing and tricks are computer skills I don't have. I'm still waiting for computers to actually get user friendly. i.e. Imagine Star Trek where I can say, "Computer, do what I want without me needing to spend hours learning how to do something new and memorizing yet another password, etc." There is just no love between computers and myself. Other people have witnessed computers not working right when I do the exact same thing someone else did and the computer worked for them. Anyway.......

If figuring out the computer stuff is not on your to-do list, but you can still email pics, here's an option...

I can't speak for @LeMark (and I'm not trying to add to his burden), but being an interested Cerveny owner and a forum admin, I would bet he would assist you in posting pictures if you emailed them to him. And if he doesn't/can't/too busy, send them to me and I'll post them for you.

[LeMark]

I usually use a great little app on my phone called "lit photo" that takes any photo down to a size that is appropriate for uploading directly to the forum using the attachment feature. Our attachment size allowed is much larger than the old place, so it works well

That being said, if Matt wants to email me the pics, I can post them for him

I think he has my email, but if not, it's fourfinleys at gmail dot com

[bloke]

Matt,

If (after the tutorial) your reaction is still "whatever...??", you may email me pictures any time you would like to post, and it would be my pleasure to webhost and post your pictures for you in your thread.

[pjv]

Our attachment size allowed is much larger than the old place, so it works well

I can second this. I laat posted a picture of my Amati helicon in a show me yours and I’ll show you mine topic Just by uploading the picture, and I could NEVER do that in the old place.
I’m very happy about THAT!

[the elephant]

I am enjoying this, so far, Matt. I have always wanted a 601, but only ever played *one* with good intonation, and it was a BBb. I knew good CC versions were out there but never looked seriously for one. Then I moved on to the big MW and then to my Holton.

I can't want to see what all you do and how you do it. Details and PHOTOS are like porn here. I hope you get the photo situation fixed so we can more closely follow along.

Regards,

Wade

[bloke]

I CONTINUE to use imgur dot com, because there is NO signing in, they could care less who I am, and it's one-click to upload.

Rather than use any of their stuff BEYOND that, I just right-click the picture and grab the picture's url that way...as seen below...

[Matt Walters]

Alright. Let's try two pictures of the Cerveny CCB601-4.
1) You can clearly see where the main tuning slide sits with just about 3/4" out when I play at A=440 pitch. That is what I like. I did this modification 2nd. If the whole horn is flat and a person is lipping up just to get in pitch, then trying to fix the pitch on individual notes is like trying to push a wet spaghetti noodle straight. Now I can relax down on the pitch.
2) The leadpipe was removed to clean up the burrs in the knuckle going into the 1st rotor. The rest of the rotors were way better assembled than normal for this vintage Cerveny. I silver soldered some red rot spots and two beginnings of red rot cracks in the leadpipe. I then soldered the leadpipe back onto the bell like factory original.
2a) I'm not looking to make the horn sound any brighter by taking the leadpipe off the bell.
2b) Some people say taking the leadpipe off the bell makes the horn freer blowing. After I deburred this knuckle, the horn did not need to be any freer blowing.

[Matt Walters]

FIRST: Fixing the bottom Line "G"
This is one that helps so many horns with a 3rd partial and it also helps out rotor F tubas with the dreaded bad C below the staff. I knew I was going to do this so this was the first "Tweak" I did.

1) I removed the small side outer main tuning slide tube from the 4th rotor. I chucked it up in the lathe and machined out a little metal so I could expand the knuckle leaving the 4th rotor.
2) I deburred but did not bevel down to a sharp edge of the #4 rotor knuckle leaving the 4th rotor.
2a) If you are trying to "blueprint" a rotor or other joints in a tuba, think of it like water flow. Sharp bevel on the inlet side so the air/sound can easily get in. The outlet side should have no restriction like a ledge caused by burrs. But you don't want bevel the outlet side to a sharp edge because the air/sound will drop into the minor valley you created only to have to fight its way back up into the next joint. In this case the main tuning slide inner tube.
2b) Another way to perceive of the outlet side benefiting from not being beveled is to again use a water flow analogy. If you can create a bit of a waterfall on the outlet side, you add a bit of zip to the sound.
2c) Walter Lawson once told me there has to be some controlled turbulence or else the horn will sound dull. In my earliest days of building Frankentubas, I made the mistake of beveling to the max both sided of all joints. Those earliest tubas sounded dark and heavy.
2d) Bevel the inlet side. Leave the outlet side flat but with no burrs.
3) I used an expander to expand the knuckle of the 4th rotor so it fit nicely in the machined out section of the main tuning slide tube.

This was conclusive. The bottom line G went from 20-30 cents flat to: in-tune or 10 cents sharp. Yes, I can still lip the note 20 cents flat but the very subtle slot seems to settle in-tune most of the time. Also, the horn got even more responsive. Cleaner attack at the beginning of the note and more defined slot.
Secondary the "C"s in the staff and below the staff improved to within 10 cents of each other. The C above the staff went from 40 cents flat to only 30 cents flat.
Third, the open "E" in the staff went in-tune (But not really. I was lipping a bit because I had not yet cut the whole horn and I found out differently when I did the 3rd branch cut.)

[Matt Walters]

Cutting the tuba to pitch:
2nd thing I did was cut the 3rd branch/dog leg combo to bring the horn up to pitch. I hate stupid short main tuning slides. They just scream I made a mistake and am compensating. And having worked in a music store for over 28 years, I can tell you there is a wide variation in how sharp or flat different players, play. Give people some tuning slide to work with.

1) I unsoldered the large side outer main tuning slide tube. I unsoldered and removed the 3rd branch. For reference, I consider the top bow the 1st branch as do most manufacturers parts catalogs. Bell, bottom bow, then 1st (top) branch, then 2nd branch and then 3rd. this particular horn has the dog leg as part of the 3rd branch instead of two pieces connected with a ferrule. I buffed the lacquer off the entire branch.
2) I heated the 3rd to 2nd branch ferrule and gently tapped it towards the bend so it would slide freely.
3) I scribed a line .8" back from both ends of the branch. I actually ended up cutting an extra .1" for a total of .9" on the dog leg side so the main tuning slide would show no gap on either side when all the way in.
4) I beveled the inside of the dog leg. I de-burred the large side of the 3rd branch.
5) With the .8" cut off the large side of the 3rd branch, I was now able to pull the ferrule off, and clean/prep if for soldering back in place.
6) I de-burred the inlet/small side of the bigger 2nd branch. I measured how deep the ferrule sat onto that 2nd branch and wrote it down. I then sanded the old solder and just a bit of lacquer off the 2nd branch joint so I could make a good solder joint later.
7) I put the ferrule back over the large side of the 3rd branch. Now it fits loose. It's close enough I could just fill that in with solder but I wanted to do a bit better than that.
7a) I worked 3 larger dent balls in a tapering fashion to expand that large end of the #3 branch and get the ferrule to be snug with just enough ferrule sitting beyond the edge of the branch to match the previously recorded measurement of the ferrule sitting on the second branch.
7b) I soldered the ferrule onto the 3rd branch and now it will fit nicely over the 2nd branch.
8) I soldered the 3rd branch/ dog leg combo back into place and adjusted braces as needed.
9) I machine out the inside of the large main tuning slide outer tube so it would fit over the dog leg again.
10) Using the main tuning slide as a jig (I verified it was level and parallel.), I soldered the large outer tube on the dog leg and moved the slide tube to bottom bow brace to get it to fit again.

CONCLUSIONS:
1) I now have the 3/4" main slide pull that I prefer.
2) Response was just SLIGHTLY more open. Like in how you might feel different one day to the next. It was slight.
3) However the sound got a bit broader. I have notice that some horns can get too dark without the resistance/turbulence of a lip going into the dog leg. Since I want to play this CC tuba in a predominantly BBb oriented community band, that won't hurt me.
4) Open E in the staff is now 15 cents flats and right on the money 1&2 with the typical 1st slide pull. This is what I expected because if you fix the bottom line G, the in E the staff tends to be a little flat, but lip-able,
5) D in the staff is still very old world with needing to be pushed all the way in on a cut slide.
6) B natural and C at the top of the staff are still both very flat. In community band that is not going to be an issue.

[LeMark]

It's been rumored that cerveny used 795 bore valves on their 835 bore tubas. I've never noticed this, even when using boroscope aligning valves. Is this a urban myth, or have you even seen it?