BRASS QUINTET..TUBA OR BASS TROMBONE.

[eeflattuba]

Last night i had the chance to drive out with some friends and a hear a really good brass quintet from the eastern part of Canada.Instead of the traditional bass tuba there was an exceptionally good bass trombone playing some very challenging rep.He sounded fantastic but seemed to be working very hard on some of it.What are peoples thoughts on either a bass tuba or a bass trombone in a brass quintet?

[bloke]

There are quintets that are specifically written for bass trombone, and there are other older pieces - such as the Ingolf Dahl Music For Brass Instruments piece (which doesn't even name the brass instruments specifically) - which strongly imply it.

My F tuba, which is one that begins with a pretty conservative capillary area - whereby the beginning of the mouthpipe is a scant 1/2 inch bore - has always been able to cover most everything, but I'm still not particularly interested in using that on pieces whereby the fifth part tiptoes up to pitches such as A-flat or B-flat way up there (that are either written in tenor clef or with a bunch of ledger lines). Before I had a decent cimbasso, I would play those pieces on euphonium with one of Doug Elliott's contrabass trombone mouthpieces. That offered me reliable playing down to the tuba low F or even lower, and yet still allow me to reliably play several ledger lines above the staff. The first cimbasso that I purchased was one of those Chinese ones which is too big and too funky, but the one that I have now (along with a mouthpiece that I recently developed for it) is what I mostly use for such pieces. I use a contrabass tuba with a brass quintet only when a brass quintet is hired to play ceremonial music such as weddings, funerals, and commencements...ok: also "lite" quintet fare - as much of that music is transposed from large ensemble pieces and the tuba parts are always bass lines.

Recently, I've been linking stuff from one particular recital that was a dozen years ago several times, but it sort of seems appropriate to do it yet again. This (cued-up below) Eric Ewazen piece was obviously written for bass trombone, because I'm pretty sure that most everything he composes is written with the American Brass Quintet in mind - where my friend, John Rojak, is the bass trombonist in that ensemble, and has been for quite a few years. Ewazen voices his quintets' fifth parts so that tuba players can also play them - obviously because he's interested in selling them, but if you listen to this "tuba" part, it's pretty obvious that bass trombone was in Mr. Ewazen's ear. Had I owned my really good cimbasso back then, I would have absolutely used it on this piece:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

[Grumpikins]

I am personally partial to the sound of a tuba. Duh.

When I was in college, there were many student brass quintet groups. A small tuba studio and only a few of us were willing to play quintet. So, there were several groups that utilized bass bone and a couple that used euphonium. All played very well. I just like the tuba sound; Personal preference.

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[bone-a-phone]

There is some music that sounds better than others on bass bone. Still, I think the default should be some kind of tuba. I'll leave it up to the tuba player which key. I've had the best experience with people playing Eb, although I'm sure any key can be made to work.

Some of it depends on the player, of course, but bass bone can be very barky, and tuba at its worst can't sound that bad.

My quintet has had to sub out the tuba, and I'm the one playing bass bone. The less articulation, the more bass bone will sound like tuba. Some tunes "work" but everything sounds better with a tuba, in my opinion.

There are times with a lot of glisses, high notes and needing clear attacks that bass bone can be preferable, but walking bass lines, a good foundation and general presence is the realm of tubas. Plus, there is nothing like the sound of a tuba high on the staff.

The exception is brass quartet - 2tpt, 2 bones, where 2nd bone is a bass. Even a trombone choir sounds better with a tuba filling out the sound (in addition to the bass bones). .

I've never played quintet with a cimbasso. It could only be preferable to a bass trombone, if played carefully. .

[bloke]

I've never played quintet with a cimbasso. It could only be preferable to a bass trombone, if played carefully. .

LOL...
All people seem to be interested in doing with those (when stores bring jimbos to elephant rooms) is to blatt and bark on them.

I have a composer friend who uses the expression - when an ensemble is reading one of his compositions

you know: just like real music...

...which could be applied to a cimbasso (at least, one which is capable of being played in tune and without sounding as if the player is struggling:

you know: just like a real musical instrument...

Here's a Renaissance trans. that I played on tuba (BEFORE I put together the "good" cimbasso).
I finally brought the cim. to a rehearsal (prior to a local schools one-day "tour").
I'm pretty sure they preferred it to (this) tuba: (The cimbasso doesn't get "woofy" near-nor-above the bass clef staff.)
(sorry I don't have it recorded on cimbasso !)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhOANQXn5xg

I only have this funny little bit from a (John Lennon?) tune at a pops concert recorded on the cimbasso:

soli line (with flute) marked p...
...and yes, the stinger was the stereotypical cimbasso "whack", but guess what...??
The conductor friggin' JUMPED UP IN THE AIR and came down on their FEET for the "stinger"...
...so how the hell else was I supposed to interpret that?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/edfBxLOJDmI

ok...re: "careful with the cimbasso"...I almost forgot about these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK-dg-2Y4mo
https://www.facebook.com/reel/1357182601744240
https://www.facebook.com/lauren.cobb.79 ... 6898130609

I guess I'm just WAY TOO MUCH of much of a "cimbasso evangelist".

Too many tuba players - in my view - view them as (either) nothing more than "elephant room blatting toys", or "something to borrow - once every two or three years - when playing something composed by Verdi" - and to play it with some sort of contrabass tuba mouthpiece...wrong...

Also, I believe that most "good" tuba players - with a "good" cimbasso, and eschewing a "tuba" mouthpiece - will find that their usable range is extended slightly beyond the normally-encountered "tuba" range:

cim-range.jpg (48.14 KiB) Viewed 1088 times

[tclements]

GREAT question!! And the answer is ....... IT DEPENDS!!! I think the renaissance and baroque repertoire sound better on bass bone, UNLESS it gets into the pedal register, then it just sounds FUNNY. Classical transcriptions need to be determined on a case by case basis. Romantic and modern literature sound better on tuba, UNLESS, the work specifies bass trombone.

ENJOY!!!!

[Eutubabone54]

When I had my brass quintet in Columbus, Ohio, called the Lydian Brass Quintet, made up of some CSO players and freelancers, it really depended on what literature we were performing as to which low brass I would use. Tuba for Ewald quintets, sometimes bass trombone for Ingof Dalh, tuba for Scott Joplin stuff. In Baroque arrangements if the composer was pitting cylindrical vs conical I would play the bass part on euphonium. I also arranged vocal motets from the Renaissance period and would use tuba, bass trombone or euphonium based on what sounded best. It's really your choice which to use intellegently and appropriate to the period if music you are performing. Brent

[Finetales]

Personally, I don't like the sound of either tuba or bass trombone in the average brass quintet (the exception being rep specifically written for bass trombone, like the ABQ stuff). Even an F tuba (or at least, the big Fs everyone is using these days) is too big for the group to my ears, while bass trombone doesn't provide enough foundation to give a satisfying bass to the group. And euphonium is the worst of both worlds in that role.

My pet theory (which I have yet to test for myself, as I don't own one) is that cimbasso is actually the perfect instrument for the 5th book. Can cover either tuba or bass trombone parts, has the facility of valves, would blend with a quintet much better than a tuba, and has more weight to the sound than a bass trombone. A narrow stovepipe F tuba or valved (not keyed) F bass ophicleide might work well too, but cimbasso is more freely available.

Now we just need to swap the horn for an alto horn and we'll REALLY be in business.

[bloke]

@Finetales

Yes, and/but the reality is that an even larger percentage of these things suck than do the percentage of tubas that suck, and it seems like (and there are exceptions) the more they cost, the more likely they are to suck.

I've played a bunch of expensive ones and I've owned the cheap one. I had to give up and make one for myself. Fortunately I got lucky, but everything else you said is completely true and well reasoned. The extended range that I showed - just above - is another reason, but if somebody buys one of those things that features something like a 3/4-in bore and sticks a Helleberg in it, they're not going to realize that advantage, and they're probably going to work their butts off to get a focused sound and to play in tune... and those aren't the only ones that are a tuning nightmare. Notice what a large percentage of the smaller bore ones - which cost a fortune - have main tuning slide triggers on them.

...and notice how many tuba players like to make jokes about how loud cimbassos are able to blatt - or think that it's not worth considering buying one, because all they are for is to play Italian opera music. They don't own them, most of them have played - in elephant rooms probably for three minutes - on the same crappy ones, so they don't understand them.

those longer than F:
Anything longer than this increases the likelihood that they're not going to be very good.

Tuba, though, is still ideal for brass quintets when they're playing weddings, funerals, commencements, ribbon-cuttings, and other ceremonies, because most of those pieces are reductions/transcriptions of large ensemble ceremonial music.

I realize that this sounds like some sort of outer space/alien talk to 99.99% of the nine people who will read this.

[GC]

I admit to being utterly prejudiced toward the sound of tuba as the bass of a brass quintet rather than bass trombone. At my son's law school graduation, there was an accomplished music faculty quintet hidden from view across the coliseum from my vantage point. They played very, very well, covering a wide variety of selections. Nonetheless, it was like 45 minutes of fingernails on a blackboard because I could not abide the substitution of bass bone for tuba. I had played several of the charts before, all of which were written for tuba, and the change in sound grated on my nerves. No disparagement of the bass bonist: he had a superb tone, and I never heard a note out of tune the entire time. I just hated every second of it.

[2nd tenor]

Just some personal observations of small group playing - which I love and wish I could do more of.

A spread of instrument pitched is needed to cover a piece and the volume of play must be balanced between the five instruments. As such a BBb can be very loud and its pitch range is way below the trumpets/cornets. A tenor trombone with f section can cover a bass line but it’s pushing it so a dual valve bass trombone is needed and such a trombone plays (down) in the range of an F or Eb tuba. A tuba tends to be mellow and a trombone tends to be (undesirably at times) cutting. So, in my experience, as a total amateur and hobbyist, a small and mindfully played Eb or F tuba is the right thing (pitch range, volume and sound) to have in such a group.

[Mary Ann]

TOOBAH!! Personally I like two cornets, horn, euph, and tuba. Mellow sound. There is enough raucous sound around. That just happens to be the instrumentation we use in our amateur recreational quintet, too.

[bloke]

I don't think there are as many bass trombonists who produce really pleasing sounds on their instruments as there are tuba players who do that with their instruments, because tubas are naturally mellow sounding, and can cloak mediocre embouchures' vibrations by wallpapering over a bad buzz with an instrument's own characteristic sound.
A bass trombone is not going to do that. The only way that a bass trombone is going to sound really nice is if someone is playing one of them really nicely. There aren't that many that sound really nice on those things. I work with a couple who sound really nice on them, and I work with a couple of others who play them in tune.

A really good F cimbasso (ie. a unicorn) is about 25% of the way away from a bass trombone and towards a tuba. I've personally found that a mouthpiece that's just a little bit smaller than the smallest tuba mouthpiece that someone might consider using with a tuba is just about right for cimbasso use, but - since those things are played by tuba players - tuba players are going to want to use tuba mouthpieces.

[GC]

Mary Ann said:

TOOBAH!! Personally I like two cornets, horn, euph, and tuba. Mellow sound. There is enough raucous sound around. That just happens to be the instrumentation we use in our amateur recreational quintet, too.

Agreed. One of the favorite groups I ever played with had and Eb soprano cornet, a Bb cornet, an Eb alto, a Bb tenor (small-bore), and myself on an Eb contrabass Saxhorn. Even with all the small bore instruments, they were all conical and from the 1800's, and they gave a sound that was mellow and sweet. All sorts of ensembles have their place.

I miss that group. The two cornettists have passed, most recently Don Robinson, conductor of the Roman Festival Brass, in December from cancer.