Kalison DS Characteristics
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Kalison DS Characteristics
I recently purchased a Kalison DS. These are oddball enough that I thought it'd be worth posting about the playing characteristics. This one had a somewhat mangled bell (car accident), including some compound folds, where the metal is kind of folded over itself. The horn hadn't been played in about a decade. I had Dana Hofer get the bell back to bell shaped, but he recommended not attempting to smooth these particular folds, as it could lead to tears even with annealing.
With the repair plus a cleaning, the horn plays well, but is unlike anything I've played before at this size. The best fit I have for it is a PT88, but I'd love to hear what's worked for others! Intonation is pretty easy to handle, E Eb D in the staff are pretty flat but everything else is pretty close to where it should be, and high Ab / C, both of which are (reportedly) problems on some of these are pretty easy to handle.
As far as response, I've never played a C where execution of the fundamental etudes (Kopprasch and Rochut) was easier, both because of the pretty good intonation and the ease of legato and staccato playing. Despite being on the large side of 4/4, it's very, very easy to play quietly and delicately with clarity. The low register is easy to handle as well. When not pushed, it has a nice, round, pleasing sound, definitely more American than German but not quite as fluffy as a Conn 56j/Eastman 632.
However, where this horn is quite different from what I'm used to when trying to play it with a bit of 'fist.' It takes way different input to get to that kind of sound than with the PT5 I used to own (which plays very similarly to a rotor PT6). This might (?) be due to the unique long leadpipe design these DS's have. Getting this effect from a PT5 was pretty simple, brute force plus a slightly shallower mouthpiece, but the DS doesn't respond nicely to that treatment. On the DS, it takes a lot of precision. The buzz has to be exactly right and I have to keep my corners pretty tight, which is not how I'm accustomed to playing C tubas, otherwise the sound kind of backs up. I'm going to have to practice more to achieve this effect consistently!
For now, this is nice fit for the playing I do. I use my (fabulous) B and S Symphonie F tuba for as much as possible in the community orchestra I'm part of, and the DS should be able to handle a lot of contrabass tuba rep that it'd be no fun to play the F on. However, if we play something like Tchaikovsky 4, where "fist" is really what I'd be trying to achieve, I'll have to think long and hard. I could bring the big tuba and work to make the kind of sound I hear in my head, or bring the F tuba, which will achieve the sound I want easily but take a lot more work to project the lower notes out to the audience.
A photo of the horn is below, you can see the scarring/compound folds on the left side of the bell, it honestly looks better in the photo than it does in person. There are some posts on the old forum that talk more about the oddities in the construction of the DS, the long leadpipe, removable valve section, etc.
With the repair plus a cleaning, the horn plays well, but is unlike anything I've played before at this size. The best fit I have for it is a PT88, but I'd love to hear what's worked for others! Intonation is pretty easy to handle, E Eb D in the staff are pretty flat but everything else is pretty close to where it should be, and high Ab / C, both of which are (reportedly) problems on some of these are pretty easy to handle.
As far as response, I've never played a C where execution of the fundamental etudes (Kopprasch and Rochut) was easier, both because of the pretty good intonation and the ease of legato and staccato playing. Despite being on the large side of 4/4, it's very, very easy to play quietly and delicately with clarity. The low register is easy to handle as well. When not pushed, it has a nice, round, pleasing sound, definitely more American than German but not quite as fluffy as a Conn 56j/Eastman 632.
However, where this horn is quite different from what I'm used to when trying to play it with a bit of 'fist.' It takes way different input to get to that kind of sound than with the PT5 I used to own (which plays very similarly to a rotor PT6). This might (?) be due to the unique long leadpipe design these DS's have. Getting this effect from a PT5 was pretty simple, brute force plus a slightly shallower mouthpiece, but the DS doesn't respond nicely to that treatment. On the DS, it takes a lot of precision. The buzz has to be exactly right and I have to keep my corners pretty tight, which is not how I'm accustomed to playing C tubas, otherwise the sound kind of backs up. I'm going to have to practice more to achieve this effect consistently!
For now, this is nice fit for the playing I do. I use my (fabulous) B and S Symphonie F tuba for as much as possible in the community orchestra I'm part of, and the DS should be able to handle a lot of contrabass tuba rep that it'd be no fun to play the F on. However, if we play something like Tchaikovsky 4, where "fist" is really what I'd be trying to achieve, I'll have to think long and hard. I could bring the big tuba and work to make the kind of sound I hear in my head, or bring the F tuba, which will achieve the sound I want easily but take a lot more work to project the lower notes out to the audience.
A photo of the horn is below, you can see the scarring/compound folds on the left side of the bell, it honestly looks better in the photo than it does in person. There are some posts on the old forum that talk more about the oddities in the construction of the DS, the long leadpipe, removable valve section, etc.
Weltklang B&S Symphonie F tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
- bloke
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I've played one or two of those that were extraordinarily nice-playing instruments.
Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I’m glad you got that tuba into better shape! I wonder if a replacement bell would be worth it for the right deal.
Those certainly are odd instruments, not unlike the Holton I just bought in terms of their HUGE inconsistencies horn to horn.
One of my friends owns (owned?) one of these in lacquer, and he sounded exceptional. I believe I lent him an old Pt-50 that he used forEVER until he got his own. The 88, however, should be a fine choice.
You did just get the horn, I’ll bet things will even out as you play it. They are fairly small, at least compared to that B&M, so I think expecting a huge sound without breaking up is a little much. Hammering on it will be a little blatty.
Make sure all those screws are tight and not stripped! I had such trouble with that when I borrowed the DS I mentioned above. Drove me crazy!
Congratulations on the tuba!
Those certainly are odd instruments, not unlike the Holton I just bought in terms of their HUGE inconsistencies horn to horn.
One of my friends owns (owned?) one of these in lacquer, and he sounded exceptional. I believe I lent him an old Pt-50 that he used forEVER until he got his own. The 88, however, should be a fine choice.
You did just get the horn, I’ll bet things will even out as you play it. They are fairly small, at least compared to that B&M, so I think expecting a huge sound without breaking up is a little much. Hammering on it will be a little blatty.
Make sure all those screws are tight and not stripped! I had such trouble with that when I borrowed the DS I mentioned above. Drove me crazy!
Congratulations on the tuba!
Meinl Weston 2165
B&M CC
Willson 3200RZ-5
Holton 340
Holton 350
Pan-American Eb
King Medium Eb
B&M CC
Willson 3200RZ-5
Holton 340
Holton 350
Pan-American Eb
King Medium Eb
Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
If a bell turns up I'd be interested, as somehow all the mechanical parts were spared in the crash, compression and alignment are great, etc, and it plays well enough in tune to be worth it. However, given the company no longer exists and not a ton of these were made, I'm not hopeful that anyone has an undamaged bell sitting around that isn't attached to a usable tuba.
On the buzzing screws front, Dana offered and I accepted loctite on the 4 screws that hold the valve section on. I could see myself removing the leadpipe to clean it, and had him not use anything to hold that screw tight, but I honestly don't think I'd remove the valve section on my own.
On the buzzing screws front, Dana offered and I accepted loctite on the 4 screws that hold the valve section on. I could see myself removing the leadpipe to clean it, and had him not use anything to hold that screw tight, but I honestly don't think I'd remove the valve section on my own.
Weltklang B&S Symphonie F tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
Glad you are liking your DS. They are very under-rated tubas. Mostly, because of the HUGE inconsistency of construction. I'd say about 40% were not good, 50% very nice horns and about 10% are great.
I got lucky and have one of the REALLY good ones. Intonation pretty 188ish. High Ab is solid. Really nice sound and response. It does tend to play on the low side... so my main slide is pushed in almost all of the way... but dead on from there. 2 and 3 works better for Eb in the staff and 1 an 2 works better for the E. But that's pretty common.
I'd recommend an American Shank mouthpiece for better intonation. It also seems to like the more bowl shaped mouthpieces better... Sellmansberger Symphony, RT-50, RT-88, Houser MK-5, Wick 1L, Lubemaster Super G...
I'm considering selling mine, only because I prefer rotary tubas. So, it's a very short list of horns that I would be looking for... and even at that I'm kind of going back and forth on that.
I got lucky and have one of the REALLY good ones. Intonation pretty 188ish. High Ab is solid. Really nice sound and response. It does tend to play on the low side... so my main slide is pushed in almost all of the way... but dead on from there. 2 and 3 works better for Eb in the staff and 1 an 2 works better for the E. But that's pretty common.
I'd recommend an American Shank mouthpiece for better intonation. It also seems to like the more bowl shaped mouthpieces better... Sellmansberger Symphony, RT-50, RT-88, Houser MK-5, Wick 1L, Lubemaster Super G...
I'm considering selling mine, only because I prefer rotary tubas. So, it's a very short list of horns that I would be looking for... and even at that I'm kind of going back and forth on that.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
That’s a good looking instrument. Nice proportions!
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
Congrats on the tuba!
I think a lot of 4/4 tubas have a low range like you described -- it's all there, but it's not as wide open as on a large horn like the PT-6. Frankly, they are just two very different kinds of tubas.
The solution is to pay attention to what YOU have to do to make the tuba sound a certain way. I think this usually sorts itself out pretty quickly during a play test, or in the first few days at home. And you KNOW what you want it to sound like, there's no mystery there. It's just building muscle memory and automaticity to make that sound.
One other thought -- make sure you play in a large space before you completely evaluate how it really plays. When I got my PT-606, I thought it was kind of so-so in my apartment. And I had played plenty of tubas there, which sounded much better/different. Nothing bad about the 606, but nothing abnormally great either. (So, I put it up for sale) However, after I committed to sell it, I played it out of the house one time at a TubaChristmas... it was fantastic! Everything I didn't like about it (including the "how do I do this?" low range) lined up great playing in the church. Kind of made me reconsider, honestly... But I was chasing my rotary tuba dream...
Anyway, it may be a little deceiving to your ears what the actual sound is from your tuba, if you are playing in a small-ish space.
I think a lot of 4/4 tubas have a low range like you described -- it's all there, but it's not as wide open as on a large horn like the PT-6. Frankly, they are just two very different kinds of tubas.
The solution is to pay attention to what YOU have to do to make the tuba sound a certain way. I think this usually sorts itself out pretty quickly during a play test, or in the first few days at home. And you KNOW what you want it to sound like, there's no mystery there. It's just building muscle memory and automaticity to make that sound.
One other thought -- make sure you play in a large space before you completely evaluate how it really plays. When I got my PT-606, I thought it was kind of so-so in my apartment. And I had played plenty of tubas there, which sounded much better/different. Nothing bad about the 606, but nothing abnormally great either. (So, I put it up for sale) However, after I committed to sell it, I played it out of the house one time at a TubaChristmas... it was fantastic! Everything I didn't like about it (including the "how do I do this?" low range) lined up great playing in the church. Kind of made me reconsider, honestly... But I was chasing my rotary tuba dream...
Anyway, it may be a little deceiving to your ears what the actual sound is from your tuba, if you are playing in a small-ish space.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
Loctite is good. I have the larger one in BBb (also with decrumpled bell), and screws coming loose is not helpful. The leadpipe screw too. When that's loose, it seemed to me to affect playing characteristics, specifically a difficult high note was even more difficult. Loctite won't weld the screw permanently in place, it just holds it there until you really mean to move it. (I'm thinking of blue loctite here, but honestly I could barely tell the difference and tend to use them somewhat indiscriminately.)daktx2 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 9:58 pm On the buzzing screws front, Dana offered and I accepted loctite on the 4 screws that hold the valve section on. I could see myself removing the leadpipe to clean it, and had him not use anything to hold that screw tight, but I honestly don't think I'd remove the valve section on my own.
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Kalison
I tend to wonder if a pre-war Buescher "monster" E-flat bell (bottom fit / overall length...???) would be a good substitute for that bell...
Those were/are full 4/4 size bells, are not particularly sought after (as are the York bells and other bells), and the Buescher bells (though I've never been impressed with the Buescher monster E-flat tuba intonation) are nice-sounding bells.
Those were/are full 4/4 size bells, are not particularly sought after (as are the York bells and other bells), and the Buescher bells (though I've never been impressed with the Buescher monster E-flat tuba intonation) are nice-sounding bells.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I've found all screw cements to be defeat-able.
It's a matter of possessing a driver with a good "ergonomic" handle, a good WELL-FITTING and NOT-WORN tip (whether blade, Phillips, torx, or whatever) and a person with some (not "arm/body") considerable wrist strength (ie. developed hand and forearm muscles).
Sometimes/often, nail polish proves to be "enough".
The purpose of this reply is to discourage anyone from being "screw-cement-phobic".
It's a matter of possessing a driver with a good "ergonomic" handle, a good WELL-FITTING and NOT-WORN tip (whether blade, Phillips, torx, or whatever) and a person with some (not "arm/body") considerable wrist strength (ie. developed hand and forearm muscles).
Sometimes/often, nail polish proves to be "enough".
The purpose of this reply is to discourage anyone from being "screw-cement-phobic".
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
Old school bicycle mechanics set spoke nipples with "boiled" linseed oil, which polymerizes in a few days to make a thread locker.
My Kalison is a different model (and key, it's BBb) but I think maybe with similar valves, and I think it could be the hardest tuba to play I've ever had. Mostly that just goes to show I've had it pretty good, because it isn't really hard, it's just kind of unforgiving.
My Kalison is a different model (and key, it's BBb) but I think maybe with similar valves, and I think it could be the hardest tuba to play I've ever had. Mostly that just goes to show I've had it pretty good, because it isn't really hard, it's just kind of unforgiving.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
The point isn't that red loctite, and maybe there's even a purple?, can't be defeated. It's that if you're applying it to something that's very small, like a screw holding together parts of a musical instrument, it's going to take so much "doing" to remove that screw that you risk damaging other things in the process.
Question though, if you never intend to remove the valve section, why not just get it soldered in place like every other tuba?
Question though, if you never intend to remove the valve section, why not just get it soldered in place like every other tuba?
Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I thought about this, but figured that it makes the most sense to start with the simplest and solution (tight screws and loctite) and, if that was insufficient to stop annoying buzzing, move onto modifications.
And Bloke, I'll file the Buescher idea away as a possible future experiment, since those do pop up in the Midwest occasionally and don't often end up pricey at all. If the results are poor, I can always have the wrinkly bell put back on.
Weltklang B&S Symphonie F tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
Run a non-stretchy string (braided fishing line or fly-fishing line...??) around the bottom of your bell - where it inserts into the bottom bow connector) and stick a piece of paper in your wallet - with both that circumferencial measurement and the diameter (as known: d = c/π ) - behind your D.L., just in case you encounter one of those bells in-person or online. (The Buescher B-flat upright bells were virtually the same, but this isn't widely known, the B-flat one-piece bell upright tuba bells are more rare - as so many of those were recording, and probably command higher prices.)daktx2 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:47 pmI thought about this, but figured that it makes the most sense to start with the simplest and solution (tight screws and loctite) and, if that was insufficient to stop annoying buzzing, move onto modifications.
And Bloke, I'll file the Buescher idea away as a possible future experiment, since those do pop up in the Midwest occasionally and don't often end up pricey at all. If the results are poor, I can always have the wrinkly bell put back on.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I'm curious about how you see the bell as it is. The photo looks pretty good, to my perhaps too indulgent eye. What I see is some wrinkles on the bell above the receiver end of the leadpipe, that could easily be passed off as "character", while the finish seems perfect. Mine was only lightly creased, so no wrinkles like that, but there are lacquer scars that mar its beauty. My habit would be to laugh off such nonsensical concerns, but there are some ensembles around here where it seems to be mighty unusual for any of the instruments to be other than perfectly shiny, and someone with a slightly scruffy tuba could feel a little self conscious about it. Just thought the philosophy of visual standards for a musical instrument might be an interesting question raised here.
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
It's not my question to answer, but I believe what has happened to it is that some of the creases were quite severe and sharp, and that the person - who originally smoothed the bell out - did not do the careful and tedious work required to unfold those particular creases whereby - sadly - they ended up being metal folded - in a compacted way - onto itself, and maybe even worse: with the "help" of a dent machine.
Compound creases are almost always avoidable, but they have to be worked on by someone who knows how to avoid them
Compound creases are almost always avoidable, but they have to be worked on by someone who knows how to avoid them
Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
It's hard to photograph well as the easiest way to describe this is texture, but Bloke's diagnosis is correct.
The horn had been damaged in a car accident, and the bell was pretty misshapen.
One "axis" of damage was the standard folds/waves that a good repairman (in this case Dana Hofer) was able to straighten out pretty quickly and efficiently. This left the marks on the finish that are noticable when you look closely, but are almost imperceptible to the touch, and don't really have noticable effect on the shape of the bell.
The other "axis" of damage, which may or may not have been part of the car accident, is a set of tight folds, likely caused by someone repairing previous bell damage before the instrument came into my possession. If you run your hand along this spot on the bell, you feel an edge, it's not quite sharp but nearly so.
Since it doesn't seem to be causing any acute problems I won't be desparately seeking a solution to the damage, but I'd definitely describe this as more than just a degraded finish.
The horn had been damaged in a car accident, and the bell was pretty misshapen.
One "axis" of damage was the standard folds/waves that a good repairman (in this case Dana Hofer) was able to straighten out pretty quickly and efficiently. This left the marks on the finish that are noticable when you look closely, but are almost imperceptible to the touch, and don't really have noticable effect on the shape of the bell.
The other "axis" of damage, which may or may not have been part of the car accident, is a set of tight folds, likely caused by someone repairing previous bell damage before the instrument came into my possession. If you run your hand along this spot on the bell, you feel an edge, it's not quite sharp but nearly so.
Since it doesn't seem to be causing any acute problems I won't be desparately seeking a solution to the damage, but I'd definitely describe this as more than just a degraded finish.
Weltklang B&S Symphonie F tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
Kalison DS C tuba
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
The bell of my Rudy 5/4 BBb was reallly super messed up.
Lee Stofer rescued it, with the help of like 20 patches.
Clean work, but still an ugly repair to have done (think -- a surgeon saves a life, but the person has a surgery scar for life).
From a few feet away, nobody ever noticed.
I would only have replaced it if it were no longer structurally stable.
Besides, I like showing up with a tuba that has dents, missing lacquer, etc. It lowers expectations, and then I can consistently overdeliver. (Them: "Wow, that actually sounds really good." Me: "No Shirt!")
Lee Stofer rescued it, with the help of like 20 patches.
Clean work, but still an ugly repair to have done (think -- a surgeon saves a life, but the person has a surgery scar for life).
From a few feet away, nobody ever noticed.
I would only have replaced it if it were no longer structurally stable.
Besides, I like showing up with a tuba that has dents, missing lacquer, etc. It lowers expectations, and then I can consistently overdeliver. (Them: "Wow, that actually sounds really good." Me: "No Shirt!")
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Re: Kalison DS Characteristics
I remember (decades ago) the first time that I encountered a compound crease whereby - if approached slowly/carefully - I thought that possibly (??) I could avoid "ironing" down metal on top of metal...
I used things such as dull screwdrivers, dent hammers, annealing (etc.) to tease those places back from "folds" into "hills", and (slowly/carefully and with determination) I succeeded. Once there was no chance of the metal folding back onto itself, I greased up the bell (not Ferree's magic-whatever-grease, but) with STP, and the bell (a 17-inch Besson B-flat bell) ended up - well - nice. I was pleased that I had - that day - taught myself something new.
I don't believe that - had someone who already possessed those skills "shown" me how to do it - that I would have really learned how to do it. ...SO much of this stuff is "feel" and "getting right down there into it".
I used things such as dull screwdrivers, dent hammers, annealing (etc.) to tease those places back from "folds" into "hills", and (slowly/carefully and with determination) I succeeded. Once there was no chance of the metal folding back onto itself, I greased up the bell (not Ferree's magic-whatever-grease, but) with STP, and the bell (a 17-inch Besson B-flat bell) ended up - well - nice. I was pleased that I had - that day - taught myself something new.
I don't believe that - had someone who already possessed those skills "shown" me how to do it - that I would have really learned how to do it. ...SO much of this stuff is "feel" and "getting right down there into it".