Describe the French C tuba

[The Brute Squad]

I was trying to explain the French C tuba to the bass trombonist in my orchestra last night (Pictures is on our next cycle). Even after showing a picture from Wessex's website, he couldn't wrap his head around it sizewise. The best I could come up with is "chonky euphonium."

Opening it up to the TFFJ: how would you describe it?

[Tubeast]

You pretty much nailed it.
If your colleague couldn´t get it according to your description, I doubt he´d be able to appreciate further intricacies such as subtracting valves and all that...

[windshieldbug]

It's the euphonium version of a bass trombone-
Bigger, shorter (in "C") and with extra valves on it to play lower!

[donn]

"Saxhorn." On the other hand, what are words, to convey something like this? Ask him to draw a diagram to represent Holst's The Planets.

[Andy]

Here's a video demonstrating excerpts on a french C Tuba and a 6/4 CC Tuba.

[bloke]

C euphonium played with the equivalent of a contrabass trombone mouthpiece with 6 non-compensating valves - rather than 3+1 compensating valves

my substitute: (today/yesterday/"La Mer")
very large 3+1 compensating B-flat euphonium played with Doug Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece

bloke
"advantage: (for an instrument this size - on this piece, in particular)
> On the sonorities involving a double-low F-sharp, the bass trombone and tuba are playing displaced half steps. The small instrument is less sonorous, more vibrant, and the pitch clash is more audible...and no, I'm not going to buy a 6-valve C version and then have to learn to play it well enough for the playing of it to be marketable."

[donn]

Does the French tuba in that A/B comparison video sound like a big euphonium? Doesn't to me, but of course much depends on the player.

(To be clear, I mean an actual big euphonium that might turn up in the hands of some euphonium player.)

[bloke]

Maybe it depends on how many really large euphoniums you've heard played with contrabass trombone mouthpieces. Sometimes, you got to read the whole sentence.

(Probably the two largest compensating euphoniums are the Miraphone 5050 and the various Meinl-Weston euphoniums.)

Something else, there are really large euphoniums, and then there are really large euphoniums. The one that's here: the Denis Wick metal straight mute almost bottoms out into the bell without any of the (very thick) factory cork being trimmed off of it.

bloke "the owner and player of a compensating B-flat French tuba"

[iattp]

I'm making videos now with my Wessex French C tuba to show the sound it can create. I am, by no means, the BEST French C player in the world (but I am the best one in Macedonia, as I am the only one). Here is what I've done so far. If you have any comments, feel free to leave them. I'd like to improve my playing and have fun while at it. Also, if you have suggestions of what I should record on the little beast, let me know!

La Valse:

La Forza del Destino (overture):

Overture to Peri:

Danke!

[donn]

Thanks! The bass trombone player should see this. (See 1st post.)

[UncleBeer]

Bravo!

[bloke]

I thought about this thread earlier this evening when I was doing my Easter rehearsal and almost everything was a bass trombone part or second trombone part and I was using my Doug Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece in my extra large size compensating euphonium. It just wouldn't have been as good with a regular euphonium mouthpiece. The "French tuba effect" was exactly what was needed in those organ, quintet, and timpani with choir arrangements.

Probably half of what I'll be playing on the huge euphonium with the oversized mouthpiece are a bunch of Richard Webster brass, organ and timpani him settings - which are raucous and fanfarish with a whole bunch of multiple tonguing licks, but I'm wondering about maybe recording something whereby the resonance of the instrument is more apparent (such as a Sanctus or something) - whereby I'm covering a second trombone part (vs. a constant fast tonguing fortissimo over-the-top bass trombone part). I still don't know if the quality of the sound would be apparent through a phone microphone...(??)
Again, with the girth of this particular instruments bell (top to bottom) and the Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece, it's just about the same thing as a French tuba (though the bore size of this particular euphonium is larger than that of a typical French tuba), except built-in B flat... oh yeah, and knowing which buttons to push is sort of a cool bonus.

Here are some pictures to show how this instrument (with the oversize mouthpiece) easily morphs into a "B-flat French tuba".

[Snake Charmer]

I'm making videos now with my Wessex French C tuba to show the sound it can create. I am, by no means, the BEST French C player in the world (but I am the best one in Macedonia, as I am the only one). Here is what I've done so far. If you have any comments, feel free to leave them.

Wonderful! I played the Peri and Forza Del Destino myself on the French C with orchestra some years ago, great fun! And I was conducting the Forza the same way you do for having a very insecure bass trombone next to me. Her playing was great, but she couldn't count and with her reading glasses she didn't see the conductor good enough

For describing the French C Tuba: (My favourite quote of someone from the old TN) A horn like a mountain howitzer, it may look small, but has enormous fire-power!

[TheBerlinerTuba]

[donn]

Yes, I find that the conducting adds a lot to the videos. On stage, I hope the tuba is positioned in view where the audience won't miss out on this.

[UncleBeer]

Here's my own French tuba version of the Franck D minor from my DMA lecture/recital (along with 3 trombones). Back the video up a little and you can hear the same excerpt with me playing my Nirschl York. The idea was to compare & contrast the instrument choices.

[donn]

Holy cow, a lot of interesting stuff here.

Are Willson (or Courtois) bass saxhorns substantially different because Bb, or because just not built like a French tuba? (Or because no one has tried it, after all they're pretty expensive instruments. Couesnon used to make their bass saxhorns in C with a Bb extension crook, but again I don't know if the 5V model had the French tuba dimensions. I have a 4V with Bb crook, and it doesn't seem to be ready to take on much of a tuba role.)

I found in the comparisons that not only does the French tuba have its own real presence down in the deeper stuff, it holds up better up high. Once in a while there were passages where the regular tuba gets kind of drowned out - it's in the mix, but the partials get pretty thin or something.

In bar gigs where the sound guy is used to popular "rock" music, in my experience they crank the tuba mic up to 11. (Not me. I was on bari sax, so it was really not me.) That's the direction. Today it's contrabass tuba for Ravel; tomorrow, contrabass tuba amplified so you can feel it.

[bone-a-phone]

Stupid question: Is the French C tuba really that different from a 4 valve Bb euphonium with maybe an extra valve? I sold my tuba, so I'm tempted to use the euph, which can reach most of the notes. I'm just afraid of wacky intonation or an infinite variation of fingerings the more valves you throw at something.

[UncleBeer]

Lots of information here.

[Snake Charmer]

Are Willson (or Courtois) bass saxhorns substantially different because Bb, or because just not built like a French tuba?

The french Saxhorn is slightly different to the French C Tuba, and most significant a bit slimmer in the tubing. Doesn*t matter if built in C or Bb, as there were both tunings common in the older days. But even now you can buy a C/Bb saxhorn (with in insertion piece) from Couesnon.
The Willson Willsax and the Courtois 366 are some type of hybrid: with four compensating valves they are for the player not willing to adapt to the old french fingering system, but they offer the stuffiness in the region when the fourth valve is used in combinations. With the french system you can play the whole low octave with a maximum of three valves at a time, so resistance is low and sound is open.
The tuning in C and Bb is just a hint of the history: they are successors of the ophicleide, which was mainly used in C (more for symphonic use) and Bb (more for the military bands)