for those pursuing performance degrees

[bloke]

One of the world's most prominent oboe players of the past made much more money selling real estate than playing oboe in their big five orchestra.

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Rapier-Wayne.htm

[Rick Denney]

I personally know some tubists, in prominent full-time orchestra and opera positions, who also have other businesses- welding, part owner of a coffee shop, instrument repair and sales. In my early years as a school band director, I delivered pizzas part-time. I was also a small-time landlord for 20 years. There's certainly nothing wrong with doing other things to reach financial goals. And it makes you take a healthy break from the music world.

This is not to say that aspiring performers should automatically have a fallback career. If they have a fallback, they will fall back. Result: almost definitely not performing. After fully going for it and it doesn't work out, their lives are not over; at least they gave it a shot without regrets of not having tried.

I think that's the standard living for professional musicians.

Most people who want to make a bit of extra money engage in a "side hustle". When I was employed in local government positions that paid poorly but that offered a great working experience, I developed software products in my specialty area as a side hustle, for example. In my business, lots of people can make a decent living, but the only people who are going to get really wealthy are those willing to start up companies that hit it big with products, and that means a willingness to work 100-hour weeks for years.

For musicians, it's the same, except that every gig is a side hustle, and a living is often the sum of a bunch of side hustles. So, a person might adjunct at a local college (preferably a small one, because they all pay poorly but the small colleges have fewer students and less Big Fat Hairy BS), sustain a studio of pre-college private students, provide clinician work for local high schools, buy and sell instruments or accessories (my niece, the professional bassoonist, makes and sells reeds, or at least used to), and play in the Freeway Philharmonic. If a decent day job that doesn't interfere with their more important side hustles comes their way, they might take that, too. I have visions of doing one's taxes with a big stack of 1099 forms and not a single W2, and putting everything on a Schedule C.

Actually, I can change "musicians" to "artists". Any paid activity that a lot of hobbyists are willing to do for free is going to pay poorly to everyone but the stars.

The real issue is what was it is about orchestral music that became so marginalized that nobody enjoys it any more? I can tell you one thing with some certainty: It lacks superficial entertainment value. We listen to orchestral music all the time as the background to movies, which is why a lot of orchestras are making significant Pops money playing soundtracks. But there's another reason, and that is that people don't listen to music out loud in their homes any more. Now, the default is that the TV is on, or everyone is wearing headphones or ear buds, or both. The experience of growing up with music playing in the house, and learning from that, is so uncommon these days that it doesn't build any appreciation for music.

Then, there's the whole thing about five decades of music no non-musician would ever listen to on purpose being promulgated as the main art of composition. Those, from the same people who 1.) believe that making money at something is a sure sign of corruption, and 2.) writing something understandable by a general audience is a sure sign of simplistic lack of sophistication. That influence has been destructive to general culture, it seems to me. We are now paying the price for it even as artists are returning to art that regular people can appreciate.

Maybe the pendulum will swing back the other way. Maybe not. Music is innate and will survive, but that doesn't mean there's any assurance that well-paid performance of orchestral music will survive.

Rick "whose other musician niece teaches (brilliantly) in schools" Denney

[bloke]

When a piece of music lasts 15 to 35 minutes, that really pushes people's attention span about four to nine times past where most attention spans today are capable of focusing, particularly without moving pictures and talking accompanying whatever music it might be.

[MikeS]

Then, there's the whole thing about five decades of music no non-musician would ever listen to on purpose being promulgated as the main art of composition. Those, from the same people who 1.) believe that making money at something is a sure sign of corruption, and 2.) writing something understandable by a general audience is a sure sign of simplistic lack of sophistication. That influence has been destructive to general culture, it seems to me. We are now paying the price for it even as artists are returning to art that regular people can appreciate.

Rick "whose other musician niece teaches (brilliantly) in schools" Denney

A ways back there was an Andrew Wyeth exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC. A ‘prominent’ art critic was very surprised that he enjoyed it. He remarked, “It had never occurred to me that anyone that popular would be any good.”

[kingrob76]

This idea was driven home to me in the summer of 1986 while playing in the “Statue of Liberty All-American Marching Band” in New York over the Independence Day week. There were about 50 tuba players from across the country in that band. Most were music majors with many of them being performance degree pursuers. The best tuba player there was a computer science student from the University of Illinois. That guy killed the sousaphone. I could not get enough of listening and marveling at his phenomenal skill. He wanted no part of a music degree. If I could land a full time playing job he certainly could have. Now he is probably a very well compensated IT guy and a terror for the local community band director to deal with I bet.

Another example is a person on this forum that goes by the “King Rob” handle. He was also at that NY event. He is a tuba player. Always has been. He has a very legit job as a computer nerd. He has always had this job, yet like I said, he is a tuba player. He buys, sells, talks, dreams, plays, and thinks about the tuba. His friends are tuba players. If you are ever lucky enough to meet him you will not mistake him for anything other than a tuba player. He didn’t need no stinking performance degree to get to his station in life: being a real tuba player and a huge dork.

Being born and raised in the DC area, I learned quickly that there was a literal glut of well-qualified tuba players in the area, professional play-for-a-living caliber players. By glut, I mean like 50 (for an area with maybe 2-4 million residents a the time). There was a point right out of college where I could get some quintet gigs, sub in orchestras that paid, etc, because I had gotten to know other brass players (not tuba players) in the DC service bands. But NEVER enough to make even CLOSE to a living, and I didn't love the grind of practicing enough to get myself in a position to function as part of that 50ish number (which is probably higher). At some point I decided I wanted to have a deep, meaningful passionate relationship with money and decided playing for a living wasn't for me, so I shifted to the keyboard (QWERTY keyboard, that is).

Just like sports, you never know who will develop after high school and who won't in music until it's done. There's a guy who had a long career in the Army playing tuba and ended up being one of those 50, but in high school I got into All-State Band and he didn't. Believe me, no one cares 4 or 40 years later. However, there's a point in life, usually around college age or slightly after, where people figure it out and they just need to do that for themselves and its rarely in HS. Anyone considering a career as a tuba (or worse, a euphonium) performing professional should get their degree in Music Education so they at have a marketable skill and not just a lottery ticket because that's what you get when you hope to win an audition as you career plan.

And Gates was on the wrong side of the field. I was the best player in Liberty Band - just go back in time and ask 19-year old me, he knew everything.

[Mark]

See below

[Mark]

The real issue is what was it is about orchestral music that became so marginalized that nobody enjoys it any more? I can tell you one thing with some certainty: It lacks superficial entertainment value. We listen to orchestral music all the time as the background to movies, which is why a lot of orchestras are making significant Pops money playing soundtracks.

Today, if an orchestral composer is really good, they would be crazy not to be writing for movies, television or video games. They are not going to make any money writing for orchestras alone. Even writing for high school bands would be better.

[Mary Ann]

John Williams is a composer whose music is going to last; and that noise that is taught as music composition in colleges is not.
I know because I started to study composition and found it totally ridiculous what I was expected to produce, and promptly dropped the course for something more reasonable, like geology.

[bloke]

...and - boy-oh-boy - are those "composition" people as jealous as hell of John Williams.

Everyone - from children to big five orchestra musicians - loves his music.

[jtm]

...and - boy-oh-boy - are those "composition" people as jealous as hell of John Williams.

Everyone - from children to big five orchestra musicians - loves his music.

My group played some John Williams just last weekend. Everybody loved it. And it was fun to play. No complaints at all. Even gave me a chance to belt out pedal E flats on the F tuba.

Any paid activity that a lot of hobbyists are willing to do for free is going to pay poorly to everyone but the stars.

This was a community band, playing at a Kids’ ComicCon in a high school. The con was free admission; they wouldn’t have payed for a pro group. We were happy to have an enthusiastic audience and not have to pay for the hall. So there are lots of situations where it’s great that free music can happen. But there are people in the band who can easily do paying gigs, as well as lots of music educators, and their time is certainly being devalued.

[Mark]

Actually, I can change "musicians" to "artists". Any paid activity that a lot of hobbyists are willing to do for free is going to pay poorly to everyone but the stars.

And the reality is most of the audience won't notice any difference between the pro group and the amateur group.

[jtm]

Actually, I can change "musicians" to "artists". Any paid activity that a lot of hobbyists are willing to do for free is going to pay poorly to everyone but the stars.

And the reality is most of the audience won't notice any difference between the pro group and the amateur group.

That’s a little disappointing

[Mark]

Actually, I can change "musicians" to "artists". Any paid activity that a lot of hobbyists are willing to do for free is going to pay poorly to everyone but the stars.

And the reality is most of the audience won't notice any difference between the pro group and the amateur group.

That’s a little disappointing

I'll qualify that slightly. They will notice the tickets for the amateur group are a lot cheaper and they will notice that parking is free.

[bloke]

Some of you might not like this, but I did an interesting experiment this week, I clipped my bluetooth wireless tuner pickup onto my mouthpipe tube and stabbed the receiver part into my $10 tuner on the stand - both sitting in with a community band rehearsal (on a night that Mrs bloke has a meeting in Memphis, whereby it's more enjoyable for me to sit in with that band, and none of their regular tuba players could attend the rehearsal), and then again yesterday evening when I was rehearsing with the brass players, the string players, and the pipe organ. I would glance at the tuner (that was only hearing my playing) at the Monday band rehearsal, and some of my pitches were pretty interesting, as I was tuning to the "average" pitch levels of the band (as they certainly weren't tuning to me). Last night (even though I was using the Holton B-flat that I built - which is easy to play in tune but I don't know it's tuning as well as I know the tuning of my other instruments), I was doing the same thing: playing in tune with the organ and the brass, and - when I would glance at the tuner - it was mostly hitting on the green. I suspect people can hear a difference, although/and there are some amateur bands that are full of amazing artists and are well worth ponying up $75 or more for tickets. Due to auto-tune and all the things that we have in place today to help teach young students how to play in tune, the fact that everything on a television and the radio is in tune these days, and symphony orchestras play much better in tune than they did 60 and 70 years ago, I believe the patrons can hear "the difference".

[JESimmons]

After I lost my non music job in 2008, I learned to never depend on one source of income nor keep all my money in one bank.