' any (actual) Bach cello suite scholars out there?

[bloke]

Though no scheduled recital, I'm looking at cobbling together a contrabass tuba solo repertoire (which is done, but - seemingly - far less often than the parade of F tuba artiste solos).

Not being a particular fan of "tuba pieces" (as many of them sound to me a lot like "band pieces" (ie. graded/academic/etc.), I look towards other instruments' pieces (whereby I have the advantage of centuries of tried-and-true composers, vs. three or four decades of composition teachers within academia looking to publish stuff to achieve tenure).

I'm looking at some romantic era rep picked out, a dodecaphonic sonata, some other things, and I'm also looking at cobbling together a Bach cello suite (picking out some movements that I personally particularly like - from various suites, and sticking them together).

Obviously any mix/match of dance movements would be fine and no one would think "HMMPHH: a Sarabande if F minor followed by only one Minuet in G minor..!?!?", but (looking specifically towards the way the Bach composed the suites and chose the types of dances for them), what are some of Bach's own noticed tendencies (as to choices of dances, ordering of dances, and choices of keys in which they were composed) ?

I've seen pairs of minuets (but not always), often a sarabande, often at gigue, (as with minuets) sometimes pairs of Bourees, Gavottes (or pairs of them)...

...so what would be some orders to play (cobbled together from different suites) dances pulled from the six suites (to be presented as quasi-suite) ?

How related do the key signatures need to be (if related at all) ?

...and (if any real Bach experts on these suites out there), what are some other considerations for pasting selected movements together into a "some of my favorite movements from the various suites" Bach cello suite ?

I could easily poll the suites themselves, and make a chart, but it's more fun to hear from others (who've already put serious study/thought into such things) and read their thoughts.

[MikeS]

Ok, here goes. I should not be mistaken for a scholar but this is what I recall. The dance suite was a popular form starting in the late Renaissance and into the Baroque era. In general, they were not meant as music to be danced to. They were pieces for listening. Most of the dances used in the Bach suites were out of fashion as dance music by the time he composed them. Bach used a popular format that could be called, “dances from around the world,” provided your concept of the world was extremely Eurocentric.

Prelude movements had two main purposes. The first was to let the gut strings settle into pitch. The second was to tell the audience that it was time to sit down and quiet down.

Bach was German and started his “tour” at home. Allemande is the French word for German.

The next movements took us to Italy, where the Courante is a stylized version of the Italian Corrente.

The Sarabande has African and South American origins and came to Europe through Spain.

The next to last movement is termed, in German, a Galenterein. These “gallant” dances were ones that were popular among the swells of the French court. So you have Minuets, Bourees, and Gavottes.

The final movements come from the English jig, the Gigue. You want to leave the audience tapping their feet so ending with something uptempo makes sense.

As far as mixing key signatures, I don’t see a problem. I think the originals stay put mostly because Baroque strings would have required retuning between movements to accommodate the key changes. As for Bach’s choice of keys, remember that back in the days before well-tempered tuning there was a lot more difference in the “color” of different keys. I am really reaching back here, but I recall G major was considered rustic and idyllic, F major was calm, E flat major was devotion and intimate conversation with God, and D major was triumph and rejoicing.

[arpthark]

As the 'cello suites pretty much stay grounded within their respective keys (occasionally dipping into the parallel minor for one movement), if you'd like to stay sort of true to Bach's tonal vision when it comes to pulling in disparate pieces in various keys, a resource you might look into are his cantatas, which feature multiple movements in a sort of mini operetta (arias, recitatives, chorales) that don't use a single key throughout.

Just looking at his "Coffee Cantata," BWV 211, for instance, the movements show a tonal plan of:

G (I) --> D (V) --> b (iii) --> D (V) --> b (iii) --> e (ii) --> D (V) --> G (I) --> e (iv) --> G (I)

Essentially, Bach is only playing around with the keys of the tonic (G), which begin and end the cantata, and the dominant (D), along with their relative minors (e and b).

Staying true to the Baroque era and the "well-tempered" keyboard, if I were programming the 'cello suites with that tonal framework in mind, I would try to pick movements that only explored the tonic, subdominant, and dominant keys, along with their relative minors.

Final random thought: since Bach composed the 'cello suites when he was Capellmeister in Koethen from the mid 1710s to the 1720s, you could even look at contemporaneous cantatas to get an idea of some ways he used keys. Take BWV 173a, (Durchlauchster Leopold):

Recit. (D) --> Aria (D) --> Aria (b) --> Aria (G-->A) --> Recit. (b) --> Aria (D) --> Aria (A) --> Chorale (D)

You can see that he is mostly staying in the tonal plan I mentioned above, but with no set order.

A lot of my doctoral studies dealt with large-scale tonal plans and how we perceive music that undergoes key transformations, especially in Hindemith's music (which, speaking of dodecaphonic sonata, is that what you're working up?). In Bach's time, not nearly as much attention was given to this sort of long-term planning, instead playing more with individual motives within a composition -- "inter" vs. "intra", which is a trend seen until well into the Classical era.

I wish I had more insight regarding the actual dance movements themselves. I will look around my old books and see if I can find anything useful to your other questions.

[bloke]

THANKS for taking the time to respond to this inquiry !

That's sorta what I was thinking (me: sans extensive/specific scholarship) and am pleased to see a scholar confirm (or even deny, were that the case).

My other main issue is the particular COMBINATION of TYPES of dances, and (probably) a "most proper" order in which to present them.

I have obviously found some movements that I like, but (really) I need to look through all six suites and (as it's likely) find more that I like, in order to offer myself more mix/match options...

bloke "...or - at least - it seems to me."

[BopEuph]

I don't think that there's a "right" or "wrong" way to piece these together. I've always been taught that they weren't always meant to be performed together. I'm certain you can perform the movements in whichever order you like. Besides, some movements are practically unplayable without significant adaptation for any instrument outside of bowed stringed instruments. I'll never be able to perform the 3rd Suite prelude the way I want, but that bouree is really fun!

Not for nothing, but I do have a "Bach Suites in Ottava Basso" sitting on the desk of Bryan Doughty. Maybe I need to remind him that it's still there.

[bloke]

Decades ago, I would play through the suites (unedited - out of the "complete Bach" bound book - from the local university's music library), sans someone's else "interpretive" editorial markings scratched all over them).
I played them on F tuba - in the octave written, and attempted to play all of the double/triple/quadruple stops...(I was practicing a bunch, back then.) This was after I had my F tuba for a year or two, and realized that this particular - same as now - F tuba plays things for me that I am not actually capable of playing (at least, not on other F tubas).

I'm now messing with movements of these suites in the contrabass octave (on the contrabass tuba), and - not knowing if I can find where I put all those unedited pages after three moves - I might download them from IMSLP and take a look at some of those 2/3/4-stops, and see if any of them can be done musically (by me) on a contrabass tuba. ...no low note "blatting", and really trying to make them sound palatable to other-than-tuba-players (impossible task?). ...When Mrs. bloke hollers out from the next room "I like that one!", it makes me feel like I might actually be coming fairly close to making actual music.

Casals: I could never hope to do what he did (who could?), but really uber-romantic (which was surely the best way to "sell" that music, during the most active years of lifetime).
Ma: Less romantic (still quite romantic, but - well... - "toned down"...??) LOL...Of course, I could never hope to do what he does, either, but I find his interpretations more listenable (and more "as if some people are dancing to it").
...yes...?? ...no...??

[BopEuph]

Casals: I could never hope to do what he did (who could?), but really uber-romantic (which was surely the best way to "sell" that music, during the most active years of lifetime).
Ma: Less romantic (still quite romantic, but - well... - "toned down"...??) LOL...Of course, I could never hope to do what he does, either, but I find his interpretations more listenable (and more "as if some people are dancing to it").
...yes...?? ...no...??

So, Casals had the benefit (and curse) of being the one to "rediscover" the Suites. By the time he saw them for sale in a dusty old bookstore, the music world kinda gave up on them, not really sure what to do with the suites. Hell, Robert Schumann wrote out a piano accompaniment for it, because surely Bach intended to have accompaniment! We don't really know much about the Suites. We don't even have Johann's own manuscript. The closest we have is the first published edition, Anna Magdalena Bach's hand, which she was his copyist.

Lots of "purists" would say Casals performed it "wrong," just like you said: romantic. But he's still credited for having rediscovered them.

It's been 20+ years since I've heard a Ma performance. His interpretations seem more "correct." Tempi are more consistent; though Ma probably took them much faster than originally intended.

You ought to also listen to Pierre Fournier, as well as Janos Starker (who actually gave me a lesson performing the first Suite on euphonium in front of the FSU cello studio). Also, Edgar Meyer performed suites 1, 2, and 5 on double bass on an incredible recording.

As for what's "correct" in performance. So much here. A lot of people insist baroque music is more metronomically consistent, due to the lack of performance notes on the music. If I remember my studies, which I read a lot on Bach, it's because interpretation was typically left up to the performer. I remember a theory class talking about how dynamics were first introduced in baroque music as "terraced," as in, the entire orchestra played the same volume. That might be what was on paper, but the individual performance habits have been disputed. Indeed, if we look at the first five publications of the suites (so-named editions A through E), we'll see different performance notes in them. If you'd want to study them, they're easy to find on IMSLP...though the manuscript doesn't make it easy to sightread. Edition E (Paris: Janet et Cotelle, c. 1780) actually set the Suites to engraving plates, so they're much more legible.

I remember Paul Ebbers telling me the shift from one musical era to another had a lot to do with a shift from concentrations in intellectual to emotional, and vice-versa. It's probably overly simplified, but does make sense. Baroque would therefore be more emotional, while classical intellectual, romantic emotional, etc. But there are so many ways to analyze this, it's probably worthy of its own bachelor's degree.

I just woke up from the couch, and it's been 20 years since I've studied the academic aspect of these suites, so much has likely changed.

That being said, the Suites are a fascinating facet of music in human history, and it's no wonder the cellists who rose to popularity performing these continue to do so for their entire lives. I bet doctoral theses were written on the works; there's probably so much more to discover...at least, until we find Johan's original manuscript!

[bloke]

The sarabandes seem to be something that some people tend to get carried away with (almost as if they view them as recitatif - or dragging them out as if dirges) and I try to stay on track by listening to other composers' sarabandes and watching YouTube videos of people who supposedly know how to dance a/the sarabande.

Particularly when playing all these things an octave lower than they were intended to sound, I think it's really important not to drag them out and get carried away. I believe the built-in harmonies should do the work, rather than some uber-interpretative types of performances... particularly when attempting to sell them to some recital attendees with a contrabass tuba. Someone walking out on the stage claiming to be able to play Bach for them with a big hunk of metal...they're already going to be preparing themselves for disappointment, if indeed they make the decision to show up in the first place. I myself - admittedly - would be a skeptic.

[donn]

As MikeS observed above, how people danced the sarabande isn't necessarily all that relevant. The problem with the sarabande movements for tuba is going to be getting the harmonies in there. They're certainly emotive pieces, when they're intact. Of course, danceability is always a plus, but I agree that it isn't literally the intention and therefore isn't any real guide.

Another feature of some movements that I think might not come off very well on contrabass tuba is the arpeggio sections - chords that the tuba is technically able to execute, but even the 'cello is kind of stretching to make it musical, where it would be perfect for say a guitar.

I have paid disgracefully little attention to how the masters play this music on violoncello, so the bit of a 1954 recording of Casals on No. 1 is about all I know of that. I found it dry and rushed.

Contrabass tuba can put these across better than the 'cello, at least the parts that aren't too dependent on chords. A ways into a 'cello performance, many listeners are going to hear only an annoying drone. Contrabass tuba can put more into it, in some ways; calls for some dynamics, without getting overwrought or anything. Taking them at the top speed that sort of works for 'cello will make the listener seasick.

[BopEuph]

I was just curious about the Sarabande as a dance, and came across two videos. One was an actual video of the sarabande dance, and the other was about the musical form and its history. Both are really fascinating:

[Rick Denney]

Unrelated to the Bach Cello Suites specifically, but Harry Salotti just published "200 Melodies for Tuba" as an online pair of volumes. Some of the tunes are for beginners and some are just too cheesy. But there's a wide mix of genres including selections from Baroque, Classical, and Romantic periods for long-hair music. For tunes that could be used without accompaniment just to please an audience or demonstrate the instrument, many of them work well, and most of them are familiar enough tunes that an audience will recognize them. He also includes a range of marches, folk tunes, Great American Songbook, Christmas tunes, and even some jazz stuff that I doubt you would need. I'd say maybe a dozen or two of them would fit your use case, though only the standard two Bourrees from the Cello Suites (and those are not in the original key). A few of them are in several different keys to fit tenor, bass and contrabass tubas. Most that are not are on and below the staff.

For doing stuff from the Suites, I usually play down an octave from the Peters Edition to keep it in the contrabass tuba range. But I'm certainly no Bach scholar and I do what cello players do that sounds good and that I can play. I think I have maybe six recordings of the two Bourrees played by big-name cellists--those have been my entry drug to the Cello Suites.

Playing real melodies is worthwhile not only for keeping it fun but also for exercising phrasing and articulation in ways tuba parts and academic etudes often don't exercise.

(Not advertising for Harry--I bought these at the Army workshop and have been enjoying them. Sheetmusicplus.com.)

Rick "in my case for private practice and self-entertainment only" Denney

[Peach]

Hi, nothing scholarly to add, and I'm sure you aren't really looking for 'insight' into how to approach the Suites, but wanted to draw attention to two fantastic but v different cello recordings of the suites. Hopefully people may like them.

Peter Wispelwey:

Robert Cohen:

Recordings of all suites by these chaps are on YT if you want to delve...
Hope you enjoy.
MP

[donn]

Thanks! Wispelwey isn't playing what I'd call a violoncello suite, it's for a different instrument though included in the "6 suites", but I listened to the Robert Cohen Prelude and other movements in that suite -

... and it reminds me, I guess maybe because as old as I am there's been TV etc. all my life and my mind has degenerated to a spongy remnant of what it would be had I lived in Bach's time, but ... the repeats are kind of deadly. It's nice that you get a second chance to hit those notes, but I don't see any musical reason for it. In the Nº 4, the 2nd Bourrée is a short little jewel that warrants repeating - but then you get to hear the 1st yet again, and it didn't warrant repeats the first time through. No. When I'm playing for my own amusement, I skip the repeats, in everything in all 5 suites, except the Nº 4 2nd Bourrée, and if I ever get it to the point where I'd play it in public, I think I'd mercifully do the same - do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Or at most, the 1/2/1 repeats in the Gavotte/Minuet/Bourrée movements.

[MikeS]

When these pieces were played back in the day, vibrato was used very sparingly. I think this is a lovely example of what Bach might have heard in his head when he wrote these. Notice how long notes are often started without vibrato with just a touch added toward the end of the note.*



*I might not qualify as an actual cello suite scholar, but Ophelie Gaillard defintely does.