186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Projects, repair topics, and Frankentubas
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

in progress, obviously...
rhetoric/description later.
It's dinnertime.
=============
Okay, laying in bed with the television on some weird show that Mrs bloke turned on, trying to talk myself into showering so I can go to sleep.
This is something that I built out of parts that were in the attic. The body was all beat up, but the rotors were excellent - even though this is a very early 1960s instrument. They're absolutely quiet and the 15-years-younger 1970s linkage that I fit to it is also very quiet. I had to scrounge through my bucket of Miraphone linkage because the early 60s original linkage was all rusted on those T-joints. They really are quiet, and this instrument's old enough not to have those cheater screws in the valve caps.
As sort of an experiment (and a bit of a challenge to myself just to see if I could), I didn't take any of the bows or even the fourth valve circuit tubing off to remove all the dents, I devised ways to get all the dents out of the instrument without using the dent machine or taking anything apart. I didn't even take the nickel cap off of the bottom bow, but I did remove the one from the top bow and throw it in the trash because it was cracked as the denting was so bad. I had another satin silver ancient 186 top bow in the shop attic with a decent repairable nickel cap, unsoldered that one from that cap, and transplanted it to this instrument. Today I managed to get the satin finish and the silver plating buffed off of that upper bow cap - during this firdt-stage buffing.
The bell is one that was repairable - whereas the kranz was not repairable, and the kranz is one that came off of a bell that was not repairable - whereas the kranz was repairable. I don't know if anyone remembers that posted a little mini-thread about a "kranz-plant". I did it, and it turned out okay.
The mouthpipe is made from two mouthpipes whereby the large half of one was in good shape and the small half of another one was in good shape. The small end had a crap receiver, so the receiver came from yet another junk 186 mouthpipe. I connected them together in the typical Meinl-Weston (20 and 25 models) spot, as can be seen. Again, there was no bell on this instrument. I think it may have been a recording bell instrument originally... I honestly can't remember.
For a few parts that were needed, I scrounged them from drawers and boxes of other Miraphone parts that I have saved up from who knows where. I did buy one part: the knurled nut on the carriage rod made way back then was 2.6 mm, and then later changed it to 3 mm. I didn't feel like silver soldering the threads shut on a 3 mm knurled nut, redrilling it, and retapping it to 2.6 mm, so - since I was ordering some junk from Miraphone anyway, they still have those 2.6 mm nuts and one is on the way...but I bought nothing else. It really sounds nice, and has that old school noble Miraphone sound, rather than the (sorry but) bland type of sound that they tend to offer these days. Nothing on this instrument has ever been refinished, and I'm not removing any appreciable amount of metal. I'm going to leave a lot of scratches in it, but shine it up good and shoot some clear on it. The polishing that you see is the first stage where I just knocked off all the brown, black, and green. Mrs bloke is more caught up on a couple of major school repair orders than I am, and she has offered to hand polish the areas that you see on the interior that the buffing machine cannot reach, and then I'll go back and finish polishing it and clean it and spray it... oh yeah, and take it to the school that is buying it and collect the money for it. :teeth:

... so what you're looking at is basically a junkyard parts vintage 186. :bugeyes:


Image

Image
Last edited by bloke on Fri Apr 05, 2024 9:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
These users thanked the author bloke for the post (total 3):
York-aholic (Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:20 pm) • prairieboy1 (Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:40 am) • Stryk (Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:37 pm)


York-aholic
Posts: 1432
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:39 pm
Location: SoCal
Has thanked: 1552 times
Been thanked: 467 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by York-aholic »

I’ve seen worse.
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

York-aholic wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2024 7:21 pm I’ve seen worse.
... yeah, well they are offering money for it, so I thought I would try to make it look like it's worth some money....
These users thanked the author bloke for the post:
York-aholic (Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:25 am)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

I have one more 186 B-flat that I can put together sometime in the future. It's the one where I recently worked on the valve section that I was otherwise playing to send off to Miraphone, and - instead - managed to find some spare rotors and bearings that turned it from a junk valve section back into an excellent valve section. That third one also has a brand new vintage 16-1/2 inch bell that I'm going to put on it, I probably won't do it for another year or so. It will be the last of three that were up there in the attic. I'm really trying to get the cool stuff up there fixed up bit by bit and sold before I croak. :smilie6:

I keep thinking that there might be some time that people stop bringing repair work to me and I will get more of those things restored and sold with more velocity, but that hasn't happened.
These users thanked the author bloke for the post:
York-aholic (Sat Apr 06, 2024 8:26 am)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

We've got the inside parts polished "pretty good" and are waiting for a cool/dry morning/day to polish the big parts, clean off polishing compound and shoot it with clear.

EVERYTHING on this instrument was previously dented-up/folded-up/creased-up pretty good...
not braggin'...just sayin'...

As a reminder, the larger bore portion of the mouthpipe tube is an oem 186 'pipe, and is connected (via a ferrule - as with old M-W 20/25 models) to the new part that I made (which wraps around the bell) I found a vintage Miraphone receiver/overpart to put on the small part that I made. It's brass-and-nickel (rather than all nickel). Also, the VERY early '60's receiver BRACE brings the receiver out away from the bell farther than the later-made ones - so it's easier (with this old receiver brace to see past the bell).

I sorta suspect that some of what I used to put this thing together was a REALLY early detachable-bell "recording" model. I remember using a 19-inch recording Miraphone (with kranz) FLAIR (only) to complete another hybrid (slightly squatty) 186. I also remember extending the main slide (on that hybrid) to make up for a c. three inches shorter bell.

again:
I did NOT un-solder either the top nor bottom large bows to remove their dents/creases/crushed areas, and the same goes for the extensive #4 circuit tubing...reminder: an experiment to "see if I could".


Someone - in the past, chopped the outside/inside main tuning slide tubes off too short - on the tubes that were connected to the valveset portion of this put-together instrument. I found ONE correct-length outside slide tube (hooked to another old Miraphone 186 valveset), found TWO inside main slide correct-length tubes, remembered that the OUTSIDE tube is the SAME AS the blah-blah Miraphone model INSIDE slide tube, had a bit of that tubing, cut it to the correct length, and thus had the OTHER outside slide tube that I needed. No...I didn't bother to score those two cutesie trim cuts on my lathe...Realize that this instrument will be dented up within the first two weeks of school use (via young scholars), and - also - take a look at the entry-side trim rings: They don't match (1970's vs. 2000's) anyway. :coffee: This - again - is the "kranz-plant" bell (discussed in another thread).
Image


Notice all the cuts and scratches on the back...They will remain. These handmade instruments need ALL their metal, and not just 55% of it.
Were this something like an old King - or something like that, I would have buffed fairly hard on those scratches and cuts.
Image
York-aholic
Posts: 1432
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:39 pm
Location: SoCal
Has thanked: 1552 times
Been thanked: 467 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by York-aholic »

Nicely done.
These users thanked the author York-aholic for the post:
bloke (Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:18 pm)
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

The last one here (that can be made into a tuba...currently a "parts in a box" tuba) will feature an new/old-stock 16-1/2 bell, the body from a bought-new-by-a-recently-deceased-friend-an-half-century-ago (186)...which I sold to a school for him and - over time - they trashed, and the same instrument's valveset (another thread...where I took some pretty sad rotors, looked through all my stuff, and found some GOOD rotors which fit into the casings nicely (other than #1, whereby I found one that was too large, but - over c. an hour - I fit it to the #1 casing). That one (as the bell will be new, and I'll probably replace the upper/lower large bow caps) might actually be sorta "pretty".

...I really am trying to - bit-by-bit - pull stuff down from "up there" and turn it into money...before I croak...
prairieboy1
Posts: 484
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:37 pm
Has thanked: 441 times
Been thanked: 148 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by prairieboy1 »

Beautiful work! Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:
1916 Holton "Mammoth" 3 valve BBb Upright Bell Tuba
1935 King "Symphony" Bass 3 valve BBb Tuba
1998 King "2341" 4 valve BBb Tuba
1970 Yamaha "321" 4 valve BBb Tuba (Yard Goat)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

prairieboy1 wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:42 am Beautiful work! Thanks for posting. :thumbsup:
:teeth:
Thanks. It's "good" work, and surely "plenty good enough" work.
Metal-smoothness-wise it's far from perfect, though nothing is out-of-round/ovaled.
Otherwise, polishing away 1/3 of the bell and outer bows (simply to remove cuts and scratches) would be "sinful" work, in my view.
User avatar
Mary Ann
Posts: 3026
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:24 am
Has thanked: 517 times
Been thanked: 598 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by Mary Ann »

Too bad that's not a CC. Just sayin.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

Mary Ann wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:20 pm Too bad that's not a CC. Just sayin.
:laugh:
If C, I'd have to try to sell it to some young scholar's parents, who would expect me to compete with the jinbao 410 price...because they look just the same in pictures...and I'd have to listen to an 10th/11th/12th grader play through their all-state tryout material - or their spring concert music - with the parents asking, "Well...What do you think?" (to which a truthful answer would be "nothing in particular"). :tuba:

These days (post-plandemic), only gov't and other sorts of institutions have any money.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

I was filthy and exhausted last night from gardening...but it was cool out in the shop and in the buffing room...so I went ahead and rouged (final polished) the tuba body.

Today, Mrs. bloke will clean off rouge dust and stray "poop" (readying it for shooting it with clear) while I'm buffing the slides, paddles, etc.


again: Even though dents removed and re-lacquered, this is a "good" job, and not an "amazing" job.
The valves and slides are "amazing", the rest of it is "straightened out very well". The back of the bottom bow is COVERED with (shiny) scratches (this has never before been refinished, and I didn't want to remove any material), and (again) I didn't even remove the bottom bow cap (much less the bottom bow) so there's a subtle line down the center (re: big blobby 1960's seam that they put in the outside tangent of these bottom bows).

The (school-owned-but-trashed) later-vintage GWW "wood" (actually MASONITE, these days) case, is all back together, but we're tapping out toes waiting for yard of Tolex (black covering) to arrive in the mail...We're go around several of the edges with that (to go over the raggedy edges) and then apply a whole bunch more 90-degree corner brackets. to the edges.

"film at 11" (or maybe, pictures in two or three days...??)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

low humidity...
will probably shoot it with clear tomorrow...

(dammit) USPS is late-late-late getting that Tolex case covering (for the school-owned right-size case we're repairing) to me.
"moving through system to the next destination...on time (with "on time" having been moved BACK - TWICE). :eyes:



Image
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

47% and no wind...

I'm giving it a shot.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

I procrastinated (I always worry when shooting lacquer on an entire large tuba), but did get it done before the humidity shot up and it began raining.

Tonight (c. 9 P.M. to 10 P.M.), I went back and buffed the slides and the linkage carriage (still raining).
Mrs. bloke went out there with me and retrieved/reset a sound post on an old (very nice wood / very "whittled-looking" construction) old no-name fiddle. (LOL...There were actually TWO sound posts rattling around in there.)

The Miraphone's linkage carriage was so brown (60+ year-old original lacquer) that I thought it was brass, but - nope - it's nickel.

The carriage and rotors portion of this instrument go together, and everything has a production # "72" on it...even the carriage...and they put a single dot (stamp) on the carriage where the #1 lever is to be mounted. The backs of all the cork plates are also dotted: . .. ... as are the insides of the rotor caps (and this was early enough whereby the rotor caps do not feature those cheater screws, btw.)

The oem levers T-joints were all locked up (except for one of them) so I pulled out some (lighter-gauge) 1970's-vintage S-arm linkage and (many weeks ago) fit the four that I scrounged to this carriage. All of their nylon bushings look OK, and - tonight - I decided that their lacquer all looks "OK" as well.

The fourth valve slide's bow consists of THREE #2 slide bows. (over/under) I've seen these before on early 1960's 4th slides, and (is it just me?) these are the ONLY 4th slides that (on B-flat model 86 tubas) I've EVER been able to play down to pitch - ie. a "low F" that is NOT sharp and the slide doesn't need to be nearly falling out.

If I get everything stuck back together, the Tolex (FINALLY?) arrives, and the case is all slicked out, I'll do a few pictures, but - again - this is NOT the prettiest tuba re-lacquer gigs I've ever done. again: The dent removal is "very good"...far from perfect (again, NOTHING was un-soldered), and I removed NO cuts/scratches. As expected (particularly) the backs of the large bows are really scratched (but shiny and lacquered).

I had some gold-tinted lacquer mixed from matching lacquer on another instrument, so (knowing that the band director wouldn't care/notice) I mixed what I had in with some clear out of the can...
...The tuba has somewhat of an 80:20 alloy look to it - though it's just plain-ol' yellow brass.

It's a "good-lookin' " tuba, but not a beauty-contest winner...but sonority :hearteyes: :thumbsup: , and (amazingly) tight left-right/up-down (again_) 60+ year-old rotors, and quiet linkage.


I was actually offered a job drawing pictures of suspects from victims' descriptions...yes really...Ask Mrs. bloke !!!
ac.png
ac.png (9.1 KiB) Viewed 1751 times
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

STILL NO TOLEX, USPS !!!

:wall:

We started tearing apart and already trashed Yamaha "Allegro" wood trombone case, pulling the Tolex off of it and cutting it into 2 inch wide long strips. If the yard of Tolex doesn't arrive in tomorrow's (Saturday) mail, we're using this crap off the Yamaha case.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

This one's certainly not going to win any "absolutely-perfect-like-new" restoration contest, but (again) it looks "good", I didn't remove any material from it, and - by Labor Day next fall - this thing's going to ALREADY have EPIC dents/creases in it (again)...I can guari-damn-tee it.


(Do you - well...sort-of - like the tint ?...Again, I just didn't want to let what was left of an H.N. White re-lacquer gig go to waste, so I added about 60% clear to this, and went with it. The gun barely began surging at the very end, so - apparently - I mixed up "JUST" enough lacquer.)

ImageImage



slides and carriage bar...
Unless a slide is really badly damaged, I usually wait to remove slide dinks until I begin polishing them for lacquer.
That saves me from going into the buffing room TWICE (and getting dirty twice) with them.
Tuba slide dents are usually really quick/easy to remove anyway...

Image



Here's that dipsy-doodle #4 slide (I've seen quite a few of these) that I was telling y'all about...ACTUALLY plays "low F" in tune on a 186 B-flat !!!
' see traces of the super-dark original lacquer next to the edges...?? yeah...Me too. :smilie8: :thumbsup:
(It's really awkward to hold. I neither was interested in scraping that last edge of ancient lacquer off by hand, nor in buffing out the scrape marks...I could just imagine slinging this fancy little slide against the wall of the buffing room.)

Image


engine/transmission: (It's getting new level springs...I scrounged those to play-test it...I ACTUALLY loaned this out for All-State tryouts (when brown but mostly otherwise "done"). They ordered a John Packer JP379B (the one that's like a Cerveny Arion) from me, and it arrived in the NICK of time (so we traded back). That kid had been playing one of those D.E.G. Shafer tubas :red: ...His dad told me that - when the kid played this thing at their house - the kids eyes grew as big as saucers.

Image
These users thanked the author bloke for the post (total 2):
York-aholic (Fri May 03, 2024 8:22 pm) • MN_TimTuba (Sat May 04, 2024 10:50 pm)
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

OK...
I'm calling this "done/good enough" (other than the case...NO TOLEX DELIVERED BY USPS !!!!).


Image

Image


This - sound video below -is why I'm never in a hurry to tear off S-arm linkage and replace it with something else:
Yes, the sound is ON.
(At least it is if you click it to be on. Hover over the BOTTOM EDGE of the video to see the place to turn on the sound.)


User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

Today is "Titebond-II-some-greenish-black-vinyl-like-Tolex-scrounged-from-an-old-trashed-Yamaha-trombone-case-to-patch-up-the-edges-of-a-tuba-case-along-with-adding-several-additional-edge-brackets Day".

...as well as paying attention to the temperature of the smoker...since I just don't feel like sinking dough into a fancy self-regulating smoker.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19273
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3835 times
Been thanked: 4081 times

Re: 186 out of scrounged attic parts - to sell to a school...

Post by bloke »

It's going to be a band tuba - and play stuff in flat keys - so here's a couple of band things:

excuses:
I don't know this tuba, nor this valve action, nor this Chino-Helleberg mouthpiece I'm including...but (with easily-audible player flaws) this seems to be a "tuba", yes?
hey...At LEAST you're not hearing rotors and linkage rattling...are you?

(android 13 phone mic on music stand)

Holst:


uhh...Holst:
These users thanked the author bloke for the post (total 2):
York-aholic (Sun May 05, 2024 3:02 pm) • gocsick (Sun May 05, 2024 6:48 pm)
Post Reply