Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
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Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I had a chance on a trip down the East Coast to stop at BBC and play some tubas. I took some notes just in case anybody else would be interested and decided to post a bit of a write up. I mostly spent time on the CCs and Fs but played a couple of the interesting or unusual looking BBbs as well.
CC Tubas
B&S 795 International Series 4/4 CC, $7,450: Nice, dark "core" sound, but I found it to be very stiff in both response and in physical, ergonomic effort -- maybe it just needed a breaking-in period, but it made my hand ache. Typical sharp 3rd partial as seen on many tubas but otherwise intonation was good. For the money, for a Chinese 4/4 CC tuba, I don't see how this can really beat an Eastman 632/832, but the larger bore (19mm/.748") does help make the low range easier and more secure than an Eastman.
Meister Walter Nirschl MWN7 4/4 CC, $11,995: Very responsive, flexible and a blast to play. Great sound, a bit brighter than the 795 that I had just played before it, but it felt "alive" in your hands, so to speak. Intonation was pretty good after warming it up, but I was puzzled by the 5th partial notes which tended paradoxically sharp. I also felt like it was easier to push this tuba in the low range without breaking up as easily. Beautiful sound, loved it.
Willson 3050Z rotary 5/4 CC, $9,995: Sorry Willson fans, but I did not like this tuba at all despite being really interested in it. Way, way too heavy. Does this weigh over 30 pounds? The onus of the weight and trying to pick up/hold the thing turned me off immediately, but upon playing it, I found the Willson Rotax rotors to be incredibly heavy and stiff, with a thumb ring in a non-ergonomic spot. Intonation was just pretty wonky, with opposite intonation tendenices to the vast majority of other tubas (sharp 5th partial, low 3rd partial, etc.). It would take some getting used to for sure. The low range was really powerful and I thought it had a pretty good sound, but the other factors were a bit of a turn off for me. The piston version, IMO, is a bit better. BBC has a couple piston ones but I didn't get to try them in the interest of time.
John Packer 379 CC (HB21/Adams copy) $6,295 Pretty much an accurate copy of the HB21 tuba, so if you like that one with its varied quirks, you'll like this one. Pretty responsive and easy to play, and I even found the Hirsbrunner quirk of an unfocused low Bb/A/G#* to be somewhat mitigated in this model. Hirsbrunner-esque intonation issues with the 2+3 combo notes was present, and the 5th partial notes were all pretty flat even with some alternate fingerings. That said, it plays really well with a very nice, dark sound. I haven't played on many JPs before and I found this one to have really nice build quality, excellent valves/slides, and the fit and finish all seemed great.
(*I found that low A and G# had a "power slot" about 75c below the actual note, so care is needed to make sure one isn't undershooting those pitches.)
Epley PT-6/Martin/Miraphone/Hirsbrunner Franken 6/4 CC: One of Norm Epley's creations that they had just received and hadn't put a price on it yet nor had they sent it through their shop for a once-over. Big sound, really easy to play, nice fast Miraphone valves. Intonation pretty decent as well, especially for a big tuba like this. Has an AGR. I chatted with Norm a bit about this horn, and the original buyer instructed Norm to not do a few things with it to save time and cost, so with some cleaning up and addressing those issues I think it will be a really great and unique instrument.
Bass Tubas
Old 5v Cerveny F, $3,200: One of my favorite tubas that I played there! I think this is Marty Neilan's on consignment(?). Great sound, even across all registers, pretty good intonation. Big sound for an F tuba, can definitely make some racket. Only quirk is the 5th valve is the two-step (2+3) combo, which I am not used to.
Cerveny CFB-653 4PX 4v F, $2,400: Super fun horn, super light, a joy to play. I'd love to have this to play while strolling with a German band or something of that nature. Despite the small size it produces a surprisingly fat sound, and the low range is fine if you know how to play a German-style F tuba. I did not find it to be diffuse at all. For the money this would be worth picking up and maybe adding a fifth valve to.
John Packer 379 F (MW 2250 copy), $5,999: Very big F tuba, fun to play, great intonation, felt like a small CC tuba. I could see how this would be attractive to someone who likes a larger F tuba, but to me, tonally, it is so close to a CC that I don't feel like it offers many benefits that couldn't be gained by plugging a slightly shallower mouthpiece into a contrabass tuba. Well-made, seems like a pretty faithful reproduction. Even response across all registers. I found the high range past F above the staff to verge on tenuous/tubby. Nice fat Eb-tuba-ish sound.
Meinl-Weston 45SLP F (didn't note price): A decade or so ago, this tuba cemented itself in my psyche as my least favorite F tuba, and I decided to give it another shot to see if my tastes or opinions have changed. Nope, unfortunately. Awkward for me to hold, with the mouthpiece hitting me square in between my eyes in normal playing position (I have a short torso). I found the upper range to be a bit tenuous like the 2250, but the low range, despite being a "piston F tuba," in which you would expect something sort of like a contrabass tuba in that range, was also pretty difficult for me to center. As someone who cut their teeth on rotary F tubas and has absolutely no problem with playing in that range on a rotary F, this piston F tuba was just plain weird to play in that range. So, in a way, it has a bit of worst-of-both-worlds going for it: rather diffuse in the high range, rather diffuse in the low range. I know some people like these horns and sound fantastic on them, but just not this tuba player's cup of tea! I do like that they come stock with a 2nd valve slide kicker, and intonation when using that device was pretty manageable. Super short main tuning slide, though.
Besson 981 round stamp (made in England) compensating Eb: I've owned some older 15" bell Bessons and B&Hs, so it was a lot of fun to play on this 19" bell version. Lovely fat round "poofy" sound, very flexible and facile, pretty decent intonation. I found the 8th partial to still be saggy, which is something that the 15" bell versions exhibit and I thought Besson had corrected. If I had to have one tuba to do 99% of my playing, I would choose this one or something like it.
BBb Tubas
Hirsbrunner 3v compensator, $4,000: Didn't spend a whole lot of time on this one, but it was a lot of fun to play, and I wanted to check and see what the intonation was like with the rotary 3v compensating system engaged. Pretty good! Although 1+3 and 1+2+3 tended a hair sharp, much better than a regular ol' 3-banger. Some sharpness issues in the open bugle, esp. 3rd partial. I think this one shares a bugle with the tuba that Jin Bao copied and turned into the 210.
Miraphone 1271. $4,995: Really fun horn! Nice valves, typical Miraphone fit and finish. Good intonation with some typical BBb quirks -- I wish the 1st valve slide were operable while playing. It is downward facing for some odd reason. It's a shame this model had some bell damage, because otherwise I found it to be really nice and punchy. Nice 7/8 sized horn. I prefer it to comparable Conns.
Old old Hirsbrunner 3v BBb, $2,000-ish: On my way out, this caught my eye. Tall, skinny smokestack bell, looked like it would be pretty fun to play. It was! Clockspring linkages still working well, required some alternate 5th partial fingerings. Big, fat, dark sound. I think these old German-style (it is Swiss, after all) tubas are pretty neat.
Overall, had a wonderful time, the staff were all very gracious and generous, and I got on the mailing list for when they start up BBC tuba rest production again. Great visit!
CC Tubas
B&S 795 International Series 4/4 CC, $7,450: Nice, dark "core" sound, but I found it to be very stiff in both response and in physical, ergonomic effort -- maybe it just needed a breaking-in period, but it made my hand ache. Typical sharp 3rd partial as seen on many tubas but otherwise intonation was good. For the money, for a Chinese 4/4 CC tuba, I don't see how this can really beat an Eastman 632/832, but the larger bore (19mm/.748") does help make the low range easier and more secure than an Eastman.
Meister Walter Nirschl MWN7 4/4 CC, $11,995: Very responsive, flexible and a blast to play. Great sound, a bit brighter than the 795 that I had just played before it, but it felt "alive" in your hands, so to speak. Intonation was pretty good after warming it up, but I was puzzled by the 5th partial notes which tended paradoxically sharp. I also felt like it was easier to push this tuba in the low range without breaking up as easily. Beautiful sound, loved it.
Willson 3050Z rotary 5/4 CC, $9,995: Sorry Willson fans, but I did not like this tuba at all despite being really interested in it. Way, way too heavy. Does this weigh over 30 pounds? The onus of the weight and trying to pick up/hold the thing turned me off immediately, but upon playing it, I found the Willson Rotax rotors to be incredibly heavy and stiff, with a thumb ring in a non-ergonomic spot. Intonation was just pretty wonky, with opposite intonation tendenices to the vast majority of other tubas (sharp 5th partial, low 3rd partial, etc.). It would take some getting used to for sure. The low range was really powerful and I thought it had a pretty good sound, but the other factors were a bit of a turn off for me. The piston version, IMO, is a bit better. BBC has a couple piston ones but I didn't get to try them in the interest of time.
John Packer 379 CC (HB21/Adams copy) $6,295 Pretty much an accurate copy of the HB21 tuba, so if you like that one with its varied quirks, you'll like this one. Pretty responsive and easy to play, and I even found the Hirsbrunner quirk of an unfocused low Bb/A/G#* to be somewhat mitigated in this model. Hirsbrunner-esque intonation issues with the 2+3 combo notes was present, and the 5th partial notes were all pretty flat even with some alternate fingerings. That said, it plays really well with a very nice, dark sound. I haven't played on many JPs before and I found this one to have really nice build quality, excellent valves/slides, and the fit and finish all seemed great.
(*I found that low A and G# had a "power slot" about 75c below the actual note, so care is needed to make sure one isn't undershooting those pitches.)
Epley PT-6/Martin/Miraphone/Hirsbrunner Franken 6/4 CC: One of Norm Epley's creations that they had just received and hadn't put a price on it yet nor had they sent it through their shop for a once-over. Big sound, really easy to play, nice fast Miraphone valves. Intonation pretty decent as well, especially for a big tuba like this. Has an AGR. I chatted with Norm a bit about this horn, and the original buyer instructed Norm to not do a few things with it to save time and cost, so with some cleaning up and addressing those issues I think it will be a really great and unique instrument.
Bass Tubas
Old 5v Cerveny F, $3,200: One of my favorite tubas that I played there! I think this is Marty Neilan's on consignment(?). Great sound, even across all registers, pretty good intonation. Big sound for an F tuba, can definitely make some racket. Only quirk is the 5th valve is the two-step (2+3) combo, which I am not used to.
Cerveny CFB-653 4PX 4v F, $2,400: Super fun horn, super light, a joy to play. I'd love to have this to play while strolling with a German band or something of that nature. Despite the small size it produces a surprisingly fat sound, and the low range is fine if you know how to play a German-style F tuba. I did not find it to be diffuse at all. For the money this would be worth picking up and maybe adding a fifth valve to.
John Packer 379 F (MW 2250 copy), $5,999: Very big F tuba, fun to play, great intonation, felt like a small CC tuba. I could see how this would be attractive to someone who likes a larger F tuba, but to me, tonally, it is so close to a CC that I don't feel like it offers many benefits that couldn't be gained by plugging a slightly shallower mouthpiece into a contrabass tuba. Well-made, seems like a pretty faithful reproduction. Even response across all registers. I found the high range past F above the staff to verge on tenuous/tubby. Nice fat Eb-tuba-ish sound.
Meinl-Weston 45SLP F (didn't note price): A decade or so ago, this tuba cemented itself in my psyche as my least favorite F tuba, and I decided to give it another shot to see if my tastes or opinions have changed. Nope, unfortunately. Awkward for me to hold, with the mouthpiece hitting me square in between my eyes in normal playing position (I have a short torso). I found the upper range to be a bit tenuous like the 2250, but the low range, despite being a "piston F tuba," in which you would expect something sort of like a contrabass tuba in that range, was also pretty difficult for me to center. As someone who cut their teeth on rotary F tubas and has absolutely no problem with playing in that range on a rotary F, this piston F tuba was just plain weird to play in that range. So, in a way, it has a bit of worst-of-both-worlds going for it: rather diffuse in the high range, rather diffuse in the low range. I know some people like these horns and sound fantastic on them, but just not this tuba player's cup of tea! I do like that they come stock with a 2nd valve slide kicker, and intonation when using that device was pretty manageable. Super short main tuning slide, though.
Besson 981 round stamp (made in England) compensating Eb: I've owned some older 15" bell Bessons and B&Hs, so it was a lot of fun to play on this 19" bell version. Lovely fat round "poofy" sound, very flexible and facile, pretty decent intonation. I found the 8th partial to still be saggy, which is something that the 15" bell versions exhibit and I thought Besson had corrected. If I had to have one tuba to do 99% of my playing, I would choose this one or something like it.
BBb Tubas
Hirsbrunner 3v compensator, $4,000: Didn't spend a whole lot of time on this one, but it was a lot of fun to play, and I wanted to check and see what the intonation was like with the rotary 3v compensating system engaged. Pretty good! Although 1+3 and 1+2+3 tended a hair sharp, much better than a regular ol' 3-banger. Some sharpness issues in the open bugle, esp. 3rd partial. I think this one shares a bugle with the tuba that Jin Bao copied and turned into the 210.
Miraphone 1271. $4,995: Really fun horn! Nice valves, typical Miraphone fit and finish. Good intonation with some typical BBb quirks -- I wish the 1st valve slide were operable while playing. It is downward facing for some odd reason. It's a shame this model had some bell damage, because otherwise I found it to be really nice and punchy. Nice 7/8 sized horn. I prefer it to comparable Conns.
Old old Hirsbrunner 3v BBb, $2,000-ish: On my way out, this caught my eye. Tall, skinny smokestack bell, looked like it would be pretty fun to play. It was! Clockspring linkages still working well, required some alternate 5th partial fingerings. Big, fat, dark sound. I think these old German-style (it is Swiss, after all) tubas are pretty neat.
Overall, had a wonderful time, the staff were all very gracious and generous, and I got on the mailing list for when they start up BBC tuba rest production again. Great visit!
Last edited by arpthark on Thu Apr 04, 2024 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blake
Bean Hill Brass
Bean Hill Brass
- LeMark
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I played a few of those in DC, including the 4 valve Cerveny F. If I was an F tuba guy I would have bought it. So light, so much fun!
The 3 valve compensating rotor BBb was a trip. I have video of it on my DC workshop walk through.
The 3 valve compensating rotor BBb was a trip. I have video of it on my DC workshop walk through.
Yep, I'm Mark
Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
That Nirschl does look nice. Interesting it’s lacquered. Normally that isn’t the case.
Re: the Willson. Yeah. That’s exactly why Martin Wilk will be receiving my rotax valves soon. It’s less bad on the F tuba probably due to the fact that it’s significantly lighter than the C tuba. It’s probably feeling worse because the C is such a bear to hold.
45SLP: For someone like me with a really long torso, I find it perfect! YMMV. But yes, I share your opinions about how it plays.
Thanks for the reviews! Love reading about different instruments!
Re: the Willson. Yeah. That’s exactly why Martin Wilk will be receiving my rotax valves soon. It’s less bad on the F tuba probably due to the fact that it’s significantly lighter than the C tuba. It’s probably feeling worse because the C is such a bear to hold.
45SLP: For someone like me with a really long torso, I find it perfect! YMMV. But yes, I share your opinions about how it plays.
Thanks for the reviews! Love reading about different instruments!
Meinl Weston 2165
B&M CC
Willson 3200RZ-5
Holton 340
Holton 350
Pan-American Eb
King Medium Eb
B&M CC
Willson 3200RZ-5
Holton 340
Holton 350
Pan-American Eb
King Medium Eb
- bort2.0
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
The rotary Willson CC is NOT the one that I had, but i thought the ergonomics were bad on mine as well
If I had the budget for it, I would have wanted the whole valve section replaced, moved about 3 inches down and in a more human position, regular valves, regular linkages. That would fix a damn lot of things.
The sound was incredible, and I hated to sell it.
If I had the budget for it, I would have wanted the whole valve section replaced, moved about 3 inches down and in a more human position, regular valves, regular linkages. That would fix a damn lot of things.
The sound was incredible, and I hated to sell it.
- bloke
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
to me:
Tuning characteristics are just as "curious" as those with the other maker of Swiss (now: Danish) tubas.
reviews (nor sales descriptions) of all tubas never seem to go into tuning characteristics' specifics.
The most frank remark might be, "tuning characteristics as one might expect with this make/model of instrument".
If most pitches can be favored in tune, tuning characteristics are described as "excellent".
Tuning characteristics are just as "curious" as those with the other maker of Swiss (now: Danish) tubas.
reviews (nor sales descriptions) of all tubas never seem to go into tuning characteristics' specifics.
The most frank remark might be, "tuning characteristics as one might expect with this make/model of instrument".
If most pitches can be favored in tune, tuning characteristics are described as "excellent".
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.
I agree, guys. This is the way to go.
Last edited by Dents Be Gone! on Wed May 01, 2024 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
- bloke
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
Blake,
If you go back there maybe do some reviews of B-flat tubas they have for sale (if any) - for us amateurs.
========
F tuba realities:
From time to time, I'm asked to play a solo piece or two in some orchestra-sponsored chamber music recital or maybe even at a tuba thing (though those are really geared far more towards spotlighting institutional teachers and their students), and I use the F tuba to play most quintet music (yet not so much with church quintet jobs, because I'm competing with someone using electricity to blast air through hundreds and hundreds of pipes) but - other than that - I mostly see them played on by salaried university studio teachers and their students. Mine is the best instrument that I own - hands down, and I can do more with it then I can do with any of my other instruments, but it just doesn't get played that often, as I'm not particularly interested in hiring a pianist, renting a hall, and offering recitals for my own gratification - as well a couple of dozen people who might show up as gestures of friendship or out of curiousity (assuming no admission fee).
I may use it eight or maybe even more times this coming year. So far, I'm seeing one piece that I know I'll be using it to play for sure - which is Don Juan, and I'd wager that most players in the United States would not play that piece on an F tuba.
F tubas receive an awful lot of attention on tuba discussion lists.
If you go back there maybe do some reviews of B-flat tubas they have for sale (if any) - for us amateurs.
========
F tuba realities:
From time to time, I'm asked to play a solo piece or two in some orchestra-sponsored chamber music recital or maybe even at a tuba thing (though those are really geared far more towards spotlighting institutional teachers and their students), and I use the F tuba to play most quintet music (yet not so much with church quintet jobs, because I'm competing with someone using electricity to blast air through hundreds and hundreds of pipes) but - other than that - I mostly see them played on by salaried university studio teachers and their students. Mine is the best instrument that I own - hands down, and I can do more with it then I can do with any of my other instruments, but it just doesn't get played that often, as I'm not particularly interested in hiring a pianist, renting a hall, and offering recitals for my own gratification - as well a couple of dozen people who might show up as gestures of friendship or out of curiousity (assuming no admission fee).
I may use it eight or maybe even more times this coming year. So far, I'm seeing one piece that I know I'll be using it to play for sure - which is Don Juan, and I'd wager that most players in the United States would not play that piece on an F tuba.
F tubas receive an awful lot of attention on tuba discussion lists.
Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I assume you mean Hirsbrunner and Adams? Adams is Dutch, not Danish.
- bloke
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I actually did mean Holland, and rather than fixing my post I'll just apologize here for using the wrong adjective.
Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I feel like I am being trolled, but I'll bite
The Netherlands ;)
---------------------------------------
on-topic:
Interesting that the B&S 795 is marketed as a B&S and not Besson since it is pretty much a cheaper version of the Besson 995 (which again is based on a Nirshl?)
The Netherlands ;)
---------------------------------------
on-topic:
Interesting that the B&S 795 is marketed as a B&S and not Besson since it is pretty much a cheaper version of the Besson 995 (which again is based on a Nirshl?)
- arpthark
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I was excited to try out some BBbs, but outside the few I played (the Miraphone 1271 being the best of the bunch, probably), I wish I could have tried the JP 379BB MW 25 copy (have you played one of those, Joe?), and they also had a nice PT-2P there. In the interest of time I had to satisfy my weird-tuba-curiosity by playing the 3v rotary Hirsbrunner compensator and the ancient skinny-kaiser Hirsbrunner. Something something Rolls Royce.
Blake
Bean Hill Brass
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I just don't see any difference between the JP MW copy or the real thing, including build quality.
Those are really noble-sounding tubas and sort of 5/4 versions of kaiser tubas (yes?). Anyone who does a close examination of either the German version of the Chinese version will come across an open D and second valve d flat that are flat, but that issue never seems to bother very many people at all - with most any model.
One by one, JP is moving over to those really durable thick molded latch cases. I don't know if they've moved over for the model 379bb yet. If I were a band director comparison shopping between a new one of these and a really nice used German one, I think that a JP dealer including drop-shipping and a case being included would be the thing that would clinch the deal for JP. There really isn't any build quality difference in the instruments. I have to believe that the Buffet ones are still assembled in eastern Germany, but I think many of us wonder how many of the unassembled parts of fill-in-the-blank models are fabricated in Asia.
Those are really noble-sounding tubas and sort of 5/4 versions of kaiser tubas (yes?). Anyone who does a close examination of either the German version of the Chinese version will come across an open D and second valve d flat that are flat, but that issue never seems to bother very many people at all - with most any model.
One by one, JP is moving over to those really durable thick molded latch cases. I don't know if they've moved over for the model 379bb yet. If I were a band director comparison shopping between a new one of these and a really nice used German one, I think that a JP dealer including drop-shipping and a case being included would be the thing that would clinch the deal for JP. There really isn't any build quality difference in the instruments. I have to believe that the Buffet ones are still assembled in eastern Germany, but I think many of us wonder how many of the unassembled parts of fill-in-the-blank models are fabricated in Asia.
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Re: Baltimore Brass tuba reviews, 3/29/24
I can't speak to the playability of the Willson 3050RZ for sale, but I can confirm the crappy ergos. I bought a 3050RZ years ago from Dave (one of Paul Kryzwicki's old horns), and it played like a monster. I liked it a lot better than piston versions I'd played. I played another 3050RZ that I didn't like as much as mine, so like many horns, there seems to be a range of consistency.
Regarding the ergos, here's a modification I had Robb Stewart do to mine back when he was still working on tubas:
http://www.daveamason.com/willson/wills ... evised.pdf
Might stimulate some thinking should you find yourself looking favorably at a 3050RZ from a playing standpoint, but not so much the ergos.
...Dave
Regarding the ergos, here's a modification I had Robb Stewart do to mine back when he was still working on tubas:
http://www.daveamason.com/willson/wills ... evised.pdf
Might stimulate some thinking should you find yourself looking favorably at a 3050RZ from a playing standpoint, but not so much the ergos.
...Dave