POLL: shorty/fatty (York-like) Holton B-flat tuba with 19-inch bell...

[bloke]

This winter, I'll probably be flipping (NOT selling, but "flipping around"...ie. "converting to 4-piston front-action") this instrument, and deciding if/when it's appropriate to use.
In beat-up condition (out of the shipping box, NO repairs, WRONG felts) I played an orchestra-sponsored quintet rehearsal and outdoor quintet concert with it, and it was enjoyable (for me) and wasn't difficult (even with only three buttons from which to choose to mash) to place pitches where they needed to be (close to right, and quite flexible, without the resonance suffering while taking advantage of the instrument's offered flexibility...Well...C/B and F/E (1-3 , 1-2-3) required more convincing that some other pitches, but whatever...

The question will be: "whether or not to rig it up with a fifth rotor".

The (will disappear) top-action valveset is .665" (nearly 17mm - a sort of odd-sized, but descending from an outside slide tubing OD of .750", thus understandable as to how it came to be) bore.

I've located a "sparkly" condition 2341 front-action valveset for it.
(...and - these days - with Anderson not doing popular-priced valve rebuilds, replacement valvesets had d@mn well better be "sparkly".)

Of course, that King 4-valve valveset is .687" bore...roughly 3% larger than the Holton valveset...

The mouthpipe tube (though patched: apparently original) seems to be a bit on the large side (at least for my proportional/resistance tastes)...so - if a subtle amount of resistance is lost in a 3% larger bore (??), it could (??) be recovered in the smaller mouthpipe tube which I'm likely to fabricate to my personal tastes...

...the premise being that: Resistance is thought to be a player's friend, when it comes to playing false tones.

The thing is this:

The false tones are EASY - NEARLY "Conn sousaphone easy", and easy-to-play-in-tune...BUT (well...) neither loud nor any way to make them "growl" (if called for), which would be possible, if playing them on the 2nd partial (ie. with a 5th rotor).

A 5th valve would take TIME to design/install, but would NOT be "difficult" - as the thing seems fairly wide-open, and with a L-O-N-G-@$$ main slide.

This might be a "casual-play" instrument, but PROBABLY NOT for playing in jazz bands...probably not ever...and VERY FEW things that I play are "casual". I don't paint/represent/consider-myself-to-be an "artiste", but I typically only show up for remuneration, and am d@mn-well worth remunerating...

...so (with this info supplied) 5th valve or no...OR, maybe...

...go ahead, slick it out, build it, but put NO FINISH on it, play it here/there/yon, and decide on a 5th valve later...??

bloke "If this tuba turns out as I expect it to, OTHER THAN MY SOUSAPHONE it will be the FIRST "considered-to-be-one-of-my-personal-take-to-gigs-instruments" B-flat tuba I will have ever owned. ...and (even in the sparkly old/new MTS case that's being Greyhounded this way) it MAY actually fit BETWEEN the wheel wells of my Toyota Matrix.

[Chris Olka]

So...having spent some (lots) of time recently with the new Eastman 832 (basically a short, fat, big belled, York-aphone) with the .689” valves...I’d do it in a heartbeat.

Having spent the last 25 years with a 6/4 York of various manufacturer in my lap, I’d come to believe that it was necessary to have a .720” or larger valve set to get good response. Well...I guess an old dog can learn new tricks. Apparently trying to stuff 10 pounds of poop in a 5 pound sack isn’t always a good idea.

Anyway, after learning how to give the horn what it needs (rather than teach the tuba to take the abuse), I’ve come around. This 832 is one of the easiest playing horns I’ve tried and makes my chops feel 20 years younger/fresher. It’s gotten rave reviews from the symphony quintet and my trusted “ears”. Thanks to Buddy Rogers/Chris Hite for loaning it to me. So yeah, I’d go with the valve addition.

Having said that, it is totally possible to get lots of “jazz” in the sound of a small bore tuba in the low range when using “false tones”. It does, however, require using the shifted low register embouchure. I used to play the bottom octave notes on parade with a King/Conn sousaphone during my Disney Days. Perhaps I should do a video demo of that, demonstrating the potential....?

Anyway, take that observation for what it’s worth. Good luck either way. I’ve always been a fan of this sized/shaped tuba and had a fantastic Conn 2J that I’d always dreamed of adding a valve to. I only sold it because of finances. Still miss that horn...YMMV

[bloke]

Thanks so much for devoting time to commenting.

...a point being this:

THE FALSE TONES LOW RANGE IS STILL THERE - with-or-without deciding to mash the 5th valve lever, yes?

[Chris Olka]

My experience is YES, so long as the bore size doesn’t get too big.

[LargeTuba]

I'm very excited to watch this being built!

[bloke]

OK...
Maybe the difference is subtle, but...
...the throat of the bell (being more York-shaped than either the King throats, Olds bell throats, or Conn bell throats...and I'm being redundant) offers a VERY "pillowy" and round sound (sorta 6/4-ish, yet *more defined and easier to aurally distinguish when the sound starts). I don't have any other tubas which feature this sonic characteristic, and (again) I've never "personally" owned a **B-flat "upright" tuba...so this is really something different, for me.

I tend to strongly suspect (since made in the 1960's) that the bell and bows were formed off tooling from the shuttered York plant in Grand Rapids.
It's unclear to me what happened to all that tooling and which of it went where, but (just about the time the Beatles began appearing on American television) the company really was no longer viable, correct?
__________________________________________
*OK...I could be wrong-as-Hell, here...being that the friggin bell rim is only a couple of inches above my head...and that's with the tuba sitting up on my thighs.

**The astonishing "kaiser" Miraphone - yes - is B-flat, but it hasn't (at least, not yet) been awarded "tenure" and has ONLY attended ONE orchestra rehearsal, and was only heard - there - on ONE piece of music.

[Yorkboy]

I wish I had tried it when I was there.....so much to do, so little time.

Actually, it's probably best I didn't - what with winning the second-place prize, it would have made me even more sad than I already am

(The consolation prize, with many thanks offered to the first-place winner, is that my current project will be quite similar, if not identical...... )

The question will be: "whether or not to rig it up with a fifth rotor".

I vote a resounding "yes" - .748/19mm will fit like a charm on the large side of the MTS. And a .687 King set would be a perfect bore choice, I think.

[KingTuba1241X]

I am biased of course, .687'' is the Universal Bore IMHO. It will go well on the horn, just don't like squatty short horns.

[MN_TimTuba]

Whatever you do, this will be a fun topic to watch. Don't forget all the photos along the way!
Tim

[matt g]

@bloke, also owning a CC of somewhat similar design, I’d say it’s probably a good idea to fabricate a fifth valve for the 2 to 3 notes that will benefit from it, specifically since you’re likely going to put it into top notch shape. If for some reason you are compelled to part ways, it benefits from the added feature.

I’ve always thought the VMI 3302 should’ve sold more copies for a similar reason.

[Kirley]

How timely.

Just today, while I was practicing on my King 2341, I thought how it sure would be nice to have another valve so as to lessen the basement slide pulling and allow for a proper low B natural. Anybody done that to their King? Would love to see some pics.

Knowing how much Bloke prefers to mash buttons over pulling slides, I think the 5th valve is just about a done deal already. I mean, look at that kaiser bariton!

[Casca Grossa]

I'm voting 6 valves.

[LargeTuba]

I'm voting 6 valves.

And a tuning slide kicker!

[bloke]

pictures:

likely, not many

The cimbasso-building thread (in a galaxy far, far away) only had a dozen or two pictures, yes...??

re: 6 valves

The 5-2-3-4 fingering is SO sharp that (well...) someone might as well play that with 1-2-3-4 and pull out their long #1 slide (for the same results).

A sixth valve SOLVES the 5-2-3 vs. 2-4 problem as well as offering a solution to the wildly-sharp 5-2-3-4 problem (one step above the open fundamental) - the (just about perfect) solution being 5-6-3-4. There are other pitches that dial in much better, but will vary from instrument-to-instrument (such as a fix for squirrelly 2-3 pitches - via the substitution of 6-3 or 6-1-2...and several other uses - once in place - will be discovered by anyone with this inline option available).

[bloke]

...and thanks for participating in the poll.

I believe Mr. Chris made me realize that - as long as I retain the resistance - I'll ALWAYS have the option of "false tones", but might as well also have the other (5th valve) set of fingerings (which offer more resonance) available...particularly since I'm pretty sure I have enough junk already laying around here to install one without spending hard-to-come-by-Covid-lockdown cash.

[Bob Kolada]

Bloke, didn't you used to mention that you thought a bigger bore valve set might be the ticket in 2341 style horns?

[Ricardo]

6 valves for the win! Dependant flat halve tone in the 4th valve circuit and flat whole tone in open circuit. #nopulling #nointonationgaps

When I had a 6 valve Bb tuba I used the flat half tone valve more than the flat whole tone.

If you just go a 5th valve and not add a 6th a flat half tone is a bit lighter weight. Or If you just add a 5th valve you could make the 5th valve have interchangeable flat half and whole tone slides and see which you prefer

[bloke]

The first tuba - to which I added a valve (beyond its factory four valves) was a 184. This was in 1978. I designed it to where it had two slides:
One was a long whole step, and one was a long half step. I swapped them out - depending on what music I was playing, and what needs I had.
That tuba eventually became the “Ron Bishop“ 184.

[the elephant]

I am entertaining the idea of a 6th valve on the BBb 186 wall hanger that I have cut to CC. If I can ever get back to work on the multitudinous cracks in the bottom bow and make it whole again, this might happen. I was thinking of putting it in the water key elbow below 4th as there is no bore expansion until after the curve as it enters the MTS; there is physical space for this, and it is in cylindrical tubing. The issue is one of being able to remove the valve from the casing.

The slide would be to the outside of the valve and point up, and the linkage would be a long rod up to the traditional location for a left-hand 5th lever. The 5th valve would probably retain its right thumb lever, but might *also* have a left-hand lever as did my old 180 F.

I'm still not sure — this is still "miles out to sea" right now. But I have mocked up a six-valved 186 a few times and have never had the guts (or a dirt-cheap "mule" horn) to actually do the work. If I do this there will most certainly be an overly-loquacious thread about it.

[bloke]

Mr. Wade,
I realize that this system is foreign to most people…and I’m not talking about the basic 4+2 system, but I’m referring to what I do with my right hand thumb:

The 4+2 system is a wonderful system, and feels very logical to the left hand - as the chromatic pattern imitates the right hand pattern...
...but that’s not really what I’m going to post about below…
The (old) 4+2 system frees up the right thumb to operate a spring loaded trigger for a designer’s choice of either the fifth slide or the first slide.
Due to gravity, the spring doesn’t need to be very strong, as long as alignment is sublime…and I know that you are very capable of dialed-in alignment.
With a 186, I’m sure I would personally chose to attach a right-hand thumb lever to a #1 slide lever, and not to a #5 slide lever. You may have seen that I purchased some McMaster brass hinge tubing with a 1/8 inch hole… It’s an ideal fit for 3mm stainless steel rod…and a long mechanism would allow for communication between the left hand middle finger and a sixth rotor - placed past the fourth rotor (which you seem to be considering). As far as appearance is concerned, one could build the mechanism, leave the ends too long, send it off to be heavily nickel plated (for the proper color), and then trim the ends to fit perfectly, which would rid the ends of the hinge tubing from blobbed-up plating (inside the ends of the hinge tube - as polarity would attract excess plating to those places.)
Unfortunately, I can’t go back and set up my Kaiser bariton that way… I’m just too committed to what I’ve already done with it...so the rotary bariton will have to have the 5th right/6th left “flip-flop“ (21st century phenomenon) system...though - now - I would have much preferred to have set it up as a 4+2 from the beginning.
==================
As to my own stubby little Holton - which should probably be named “Tubby“ - As I think back to my own 1978 design - whereby a 5th valve had BOTH long whole step AND long half step slides made for it (inserting one or the other, depending on need) I’m starting to smile. I’m beginning to remember using the long half step slide almost exclusively, when I was lucky enough to be able to play several performances of the complete “Love of Three Oranges“ opera...so that shorter slide length - I believe - could prove viable again, and (sure: sometimes-to-often) without the long whole step slide (as I would certainly ONLY add a fifth valve to the Holton) also in place.
Particularly with a B-flat tuba, there would be plenty of times where I would be much more interested in tuning B-naturals better than being able to play double low E-flats on the second partial, as those E-flats are still somewhat rarely encountered in written tuba music.