Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
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Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
WARNING FOR THE ATTENTION-CHALLENGED OR VOCABULARY-PARANOID
This is one of my super-long-winded sprees, and it does not even contain any photos. Read at your own risk.
________________
Well, well, well… I never thought this thread would flow from my fat fingertips, yet here we are…
Okay, so I started preparing the Kurath for sale. Before I delve into what I am doing to it (another chunk of rebuild work — more on that later) I have to admit that I played on it for about two hours using accompaniment files, drone pitches, and a reference strobe tuner.
It is really quite good. When I bought the Adams I had decided that EITHER…
• I had never noticed the funky pitch in two sections of the range of the horn because I had used my 1st slide like a good dog and fixed it all as I played, and with the added 6th valve I was trying to play it with zero slide manipulation…
OR
• I had screwed something up while messing around with the taper rate of the valve section, leadpipe, and MTS sections…
I was less than pleased and did not know what to blame or even if there had been any actual change at all. Maybe I was just hearing better after working up two difficult recital programs…? I don't know. Mostly the sharp second space C was bugging the crap out of me. Then there were some pitches that were suddenly flat that had never been flat in the past and two or three newly sharpened pitches. Again, I was not sure what happened, here.
But I was distraught by this.
Enter the Adams.
Man, this tuba plays well in tune. The sound is a lot smaller (more focused, too) and the tone is more even across the full range of the instrument. I am glad about that since it cost so dang much!
I found that some of the really awkward material on the recital programs just falls out of the Adams with little effort, making me sound like a much better player than I feel I am. Wow. Worth every penny. But, to be completely honest here, I had a tough time settling on a mouthpiece as the horn — mated to my teeth and chops — does not like most of my mouthpieces. I had to buy a lot to research stuff I had never considered in the past.
The YamaYork also required me to fiddle with a lot of mouthpieces. As in a LOT. Both these spendy tubas play very well with anything plugged into the receiver, but each mouthpiece made some aspect or other really sparkle. It took a long time for me to find mouthpieces that seemed to allow me to access all those maximum benefits in one go. This cost a lot of money and time, but now I have like a dozen or so new, expensive mouthpieces to fart around with.
Today I could not find the two mouthpieces I had been using with the Kurath. I have jumbled up my mouthpieces and have not yet had time to reorganize them. (They are stashed in like five different rooms, for example.) So I decided to grab three or four of the new ones that I liked for various reasons. Some were huge, some very small — you know the drill…
One of my surprises during the Yamaha search was just how much I like my old Rose Solo, a piece I bought in 1979 and have never used for much of anything. It is marvelous on my YamaYork. But in the orchestra, it has too much of a cap on its potential output. It would work great on a recital if I wanted to play a superlative example of a BAT with all the clarity that one would want in a recital setting.
I tried it in the Kurath and none of the quirks I was having to fight were present. None. I had to pull slides to new homes, and the MTS had to come out about an INCH (!!!), and then everything just lined up. The second space C is still sharp, but in some keys, it is easily lipped down, and in an Ab major chord (when it is a major third) playing it 13 works very well.
Using my older mouthpieces I could get it in tune using a shallow piece, but the low Bb (15) had a pinched, nasal timbre that could not be altered. It barked terribly, too. Using a deep mouthpiece would open up the low range nicely, but the intonation around that same sharp C went out the window quite badly. I could not resolve this. Above the staff, it simply went terribly flat. So I limped along, thinking I had butchered my tuba.
I was wrong.
The new Rose Solo fits the receiver correctly (lacking the oddball Miraphone shank taper used in the 1970s and earlier) and everything plays in tune and the low range is much more malleable. The low Bb is still pinched, but I learned to get a fat, open sound on that note in under 15 minutes. (Relax, stupid. Just relax.) It is not restricted and can be hammered pretty well now that I have it sorted.
So, I am now (get this craziness) considering selling the Adams and keeping the Kurath.
Pros
Adams
overall evenness of tone
overall trueness of scale
sounds like an F tuba
lightweight
easier to hold or play when standing
very "pretty" silver plate (that is likely fragile)
smaller
higher perceived $$$$$ resale value
Kurath
6 valves — it is a system that really *does* make things better
evenness of tone down to low B, and I think I have that solved
removable valve section — makes many things amazingly simple and inexpensive
caries very well in the orchestra
"Is sturdy like tank." (It fell over on a cement floor once and there wasn't even a flat spot at the impact point.)
chicks dig it
not pretty (there are many advantages to raw brass)
I prefer the Adams, but wish there was a way to insert another rotary valve as with the Kurath. But I have studied it over and over and there is NO place to do that. Not one. Anyway, with the beautiful silver finish, I would not be able to make myself take a torch to it. No, for that reason, both the Adams and the Yamaha are not to be altered; they are take-them-as-they-are tubas due to the beautiful, much-hated, evil silver plating. The Holton and Kurath fairly screamed, "Modify me!" (I love raw brass!)
So as sexy as the Adams is, I may sell it and keep the Kurath, now that I have found the mouthpiece it seems to like the most.
Obviously, I have a lot to think about, here.
Now, as to what I am doing to the horn…
Today I disassembled it and then torched off the 5th/6th valve section. (I designed it for this, knowing I would likely make major changes to the 6th rotor body and slide orientation after using it for a while, so it was one brace and one connecting ferrule and it dropped off, and then the 6th came off via one brace and a ferrule. I have the new 6th rotor ready to install, and the new slide layout happily will reuse the current slide with one small part swapped out for a new one. Slick! The terrible problem with the wonky 6th linkage will simply evaporate. Life will be good again. There are some other things I am considering (one of those "while you're in there you might as well also…" situations like replacing the thermostat and water pump when you replace your timing belt because you do not want to have to tear all that crap out again anytime soon. So I wanted to rebuild the 5th slide loop. Herr Kurath used three different layouts on the Kurath and the Willson 3200 FA5, and the last one seems to be the one he used the longest, so there may be a reason for that other than cost or ease of assembly. I think it may have to do with the tone of that low Bb as well as a terrible water drainage issue. So maybe that, too. I bought all the needed parts for this last year and have been too lazy to finish this tuba, especially after getting the Adams. I also want either to make new levers or do some surgery to the ones I have now as I am not happy with how they attach to the linkage rods.
Either way, I will sell one of these two excellent F tubas. It will probably be the Kurath, but that 6th valve is super sexy to me. I love it as it makes the entire low register "make sense" to me so that I can sightread much better down there. But I only have the small leadpipe for the Adams, and it is too small for the orchestra unless I work very hard. I will try to get the large one, too. Or I may sell it since it has only 5 valves. To be fair — using some deep voodoo, Adams/Hirsbrunner made a 5-valved tuba with a low register that plays very well in tune, even where a 6th valve ought to be better. I do not think an added 6th would improve things in that way, but rather make fingerings easier for me.
Again, I have lots to think about.
And I have a Kurath that is in pieces on my bench that I need to get to work on starting tomorrow.
Ciao, y'all.
This is one of my super-long-winded sprees, and it does not even contain any photos. Read at your own risk.
________________
Well, well, well… I never thought this thread would flow from my fat fingertips, yet here we are…
Okay, so I started preparing the Kurath for sale. Before I delve into what I am doing to it (another chunk of rebuild work — more on that later) I have to admit that I played on it for about two hours using accompaniment files, drone pitches, and a reference strobe tuner.
It is really quite good. When I bought the Adams I had decided that EITHER…
• I had never noticed the funky pitch in two sections of the range of the horn because I had used my 1st slide like a good dog and fixed it all as I played, and with the added 6th valve I was trying to play it with zero slide manipulation…
OR
• I had screwed something up while messing around with the taper rate of the valve section, leadpipe, and MTS sections…
I was less than pleased and did not know what to blame or even if there had been any actual change at all. Maybe I was just hearing better after working up two difficult recital programs…? I don't know. Mostly the sharp second space C was bugging the crap out of me. Then there were some pitches that were suddenly flat that had never been flat in the past and two or three newly sharpened pitches. Again, I was not sure what happened, here.
But I was distraught by this.
Enter the Adams.
Man, this tuba plays well in tune. The sound is a lot smaller (more focused, too) and the tone is more even across the full range of the instrument. I am glad about that since it cost so dang much!
I found that some of the really awkward material on the recital programs just falls out of the Adams with little effort, making me sound like a much better player than I feel I am. Wow. Worth every penny. But, to be completely honest here, I had a tough time settling on a mouthpiece as the horn — mated to my teeth and chops — does not like most of my mouthpieces. I had to buy a lot to research stuff I had never considered in the past.
The YamaYork also required me to fiddle with a lot of mouthpieces. As in a LOT. Both these spendy tubas play very well with anything plugged into the receiver, but each mouthpiece made some aspect or other really sparkle. It took a long time for me to find mouthpieces that seemed to allow me to access all those maximum benefits in one go. This cost a lot of money and time, but now I have like a dozen or so new, expensive mouthpieces to fart around with.
Today I could not find the two mouthpieces I had been using with the Kurath. I have jumbled up my mouthpieces and have not yet had time to reorganize them. (They are stashed in like five different rooms, for example.) So I decided to grab three or four of the new ones that I liked for various reasons. Some were huge, some very small — you know the drill…
One of my surprises during the Yamaha search was just how much I like my old Rose Solo, a piece I bought in 1979 and have never used for much of anything. It is marvelous on my YamaYork. But in the orchestra, it has too much of a cap on its potential output. It would work great on a recital if I wanted to play a superlative example of a BAT with all the clarity that one would want in a recital setting.
I tried it in the Kurath and none of the quirks I was having to fight were present. None. I had to pull slides to new homes, and the MTS had to come out about an INCH (!!!), and then everything just lined up. The second space C is still sharp, but in some keys, it is easily lipped down, and in an Ab major chord (when it is a major third) playing it 13 works very well.
Using my older mouthpieces I could get it in tune using a shallow piece, but the low Bb (15) had a pinched, nasal timbre that could not be altered. It barked terribly, too. Using a deep mouthpiece would open up the low range nicely, but the intonation around that same sharp C went out the window quite badly. I could not resolve this. Above the staff, it simply went terribly flat. So I limped along, thinking I had butchered my tuba.
I was wrong.
The new Rose Solo fits the receiver correctly (lacking the oddball Miraphone shank taper used in the 1970s and earlier) and everything plays in tune and the low range is much more malleable. The low Bb is still pinched, but I learned to get a fat, open sound on that note in under 15 minutes. (Relax, stupid. Just relax.) It is not restricted and can be hammered pretty well now that I have it sorted.
So, I am now (get this craziness) considering selling the Adams and keeping the Kurath.
Pros
Adams
overall evenness of tone
overall trueness of scale
sounds like an F tuba
lightweight
easier to hold or play when standing
very "pretty" silver plate (that is likely fragile)
smaller
higher perceived $$$$$ resale value
Kurath
6 valves — it is a system that really *does* make things better
evenness of tone down to low B, and I think I have that solved
removable valve section — makes many things amazingly simple and inexpensive
caries very well in the orchestra
"Is sturdy like tank." (It fell over on a cement floor once and there wasn't even a flat spot at the impact point.)
chicks dig it
not pretty (there are many advantages to raw brass)
I prefer the Adams, but wish there was a way to insert another rotary valve as with the Kurath. But I have studied it over and over and there is NO place to do that. Not one. Anyway, with the beautiful silver finish, I would not be able to make myself take a torch to it. No, for that reason, both the Adams and the Yamaha are not to be altered; they are take-them-as-they-are tubas due to the beautiful, much-hated, evil silver plating. The Holton and Kurath fairly screamed, "Modify me!" (I love raw brass!)
So as sexy as the Adams is, I may sell it and keep the Kurath, now that I have found the mouthpiece it seems to like the most.
Obviously, I have a lot to think about, here.
Now, as to what I am doing to the horn…
Today I disassembled it and then torched off the 5th/6th valve section. (I designed it for this, knowing I would likely make major changes to the 6th rotor body and slide orientation after using it for a while, so it was one brace and one connecting ferrule and it dropped off, and then the 6th came off via one brace and a ferrule. I have the new 6th rotor ready to install, and the new slide layout happily will reuse the current slide with one small part swapped out for a new one. Slick! The terrible problem with the wonky 6th linkage will simply evaporate. Life will be good again. There are some other things I am considering (one of those "while you're in there you might as well also…" situations like replacing the thermostat and water pump when you replace your timing belt because you do not want to have to tear all that crap out again anytime soon. So I wanted to rebuild the 5th slide loop. Herr Kurath used three different layouts on the Kurath and the Willson 3200 FA5, and the last one seems to be the one he used the longest, so there may be a reason for that other than cost or ease of assembly. I think it may have to do with the tone of that low Bb as well as a terrible water drainage issue. So maybe that, too. I bought all the needed parts for this last year and have been too lazy to finish this tuba, especially after getting the Adams. I also want either to make new levers or do some surgery to the ones I have now as I am not happy with how they attach to the linkage rods.
Either way, I will sell one of these two excellent F tubas. It will probably be the Kurath, but that 6th valve is super sexy to me. I love it as it makes the entire low register "make sense" to me so that I can sightread much better down there. But I only have the small leadpipe for the Adams, and it is too small for the orchestra unless I work very hard. I will try to get the large one, too. Or I may sell it since it has only 5 valves. To be fair — using some deep voodoo, Adams/Hirsbrunner made a 5-valved tuba with a low register that plays very well in tune, even where a 6th valve ought to be better. I do not think an added 6th would improve things in that way, but rather make fingerings easier for me.
Again, I have lots to think about.
And I have a Kurath that is in pieces on my bench that I need to get to work on starting tomorrow.
Ciao, y'all.
Last edited by the elephant on Sun Nov 10, 2024 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- York-aholic (Tue May 07, 2024 1:11 am) • Casca Grossa (Wed May 08, 2024 7:43 am)
- LeMark
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Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
I know that feel Wade. I lusted after a Norwegian star for 15 years, never finding the justification to spend the cheddar. I sold my fancy adams Euphonium to make it happen, but I finally got the horn I've always wanted. But, I also have a shockingly good York Eb that I built myself, and after @UncleBeer worked on the 4th valve circuit so it blows a little better down there. It's not as wide open as the star down there, but the tone is richer/thicker on the york. I dont need both, but I can find things to love about both, even as radically different as they are
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- the elephant (Mon May 06, 2024 10:23 pm) • York-aholic (Tue May 07, 2024 1:11 am)
Yep, I'm Mark
Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
I play my N Star with fairly large (Bb/CC) mouthpieces, like a Tilz M1 or TheBerlinerTuba's Helleberg copy.
It will never sound as fat as my Besson/ B&H Eb but it does give the Miraphone some nice deeper voice.
Did I mention I LOVE my Norwegian Star?
Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
If all people would think a bit more, the world would be a better place!
You rock Elephant, keep 'em coming
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- the elephant (Tue May 07, 2024 11:48 am)
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Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
I've started playing the star with my Sellmansberger symphony to thicken up the tone
Yep, I'm Mark
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Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
Today I torched apart the 5th/6th valve section and discovered (sadly) that the original valves had to have the outflow knuckles expanded to make the "taper" from valve to valve. This means that one slide outer tube and five ferrules cannot be removed from the two rotor casings without the use of my acetylene torch, and I am too lazy to go out into the messy carport 9it flooded a few times this winter) to set up my "shop". So I am trying to use my butane micro torches to do everything, and I cannot get the casings hot enough to keep the solder liquid while I try to twist the very tight ferrules free.
So they stay in place. If I ever need to use these two valves again I will either retain the ferrules or I'll clip and peel them off… but I don't want to do that right now.
So the two brand new valves I ordered for this work will get used after all.
And I made a mistake when I ordered the 6th valve. Or, more accurately, I changed my plans again after having ordered it.
<sigh>
It will work, but it is not ideal. It is stuff like this that makes me feel stupid, you know?
So I managed to remove the entire 5th slide loop in one piece and I happened to have two ferrules already cut and finished from another project that fit this tubing, so I soldered the slide to the valve so that I am in my Happy Place. (I prefer to work with lots of subassemblies to help me get alignment more easily, and this makes a nice subassembly to tack everything to before it goes back onto the valve section.)
I have to cut some ferrules and one slide leg tomorrow. I also have to cut one 90º curved runner from the 6th slide to the valve port. I also have to subtract the added length of the new slide runners (due to the orientation change) and subtract that from the pullable slide length, which sucks. It will be the correct length, so the slide need not be long, but it will have a very short pull, which I dislike. Oh, well…
It is going well.
So they stay in place. If I ever need to use these two valves again I will either retain the ferrules or I'll clip and peel them off… but I don't want to do that right now.
So the two brand new valves I ordered for this work will get used after all.
And I made a mistake when I ordered the 6th valve. Or, more accurately, I changed my plans again after having ordered it.
<sigh>
It will work, but it is not ideal. It is stuff like this that makes me feel stupid, you know?
So I managed to remove the entire 5th slide loop in one piece and I happened to have two ferrules already cut and finished from another project that fit this tubing, so I soldered the slide to the valve so that I am in my Happy Place. (I prefer to work with lots of subassemblies to help me get alignment more easily, and this makes a nice subassembly to tack everything to before it goes back onto the valve section.)
I have to cut some ferrules and one slide leg tomorrow. I also have to cut one 90º curved runner from the 6th slide to the valve port. I also have to subtract the added length of the new slide runners (due to the orientation change) and subtract that from the pullable slide length, which sucks. It will be the correct length, so the slide need not be long, but it will have a very short pull, which I dislike. Oh, well…
It is going well.
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- York-aholic (Wed May 08, 2024 5:15 am) • Casca Grossa (Wed May 08, 2024 7:43 am)
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- the elephant
- Posts: 3374
- Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:39 am
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Re: Kurath F — Reconsidered…
Okay, I'm back with this necro-thread.
I have tried to work out how to fix this situation at the lowest possible cost since this tuba will be up for sale once it is completed — and none of the obvious solutions will make me happy.
So I am ordering a THIRD custom-built rotary valve unit from Miraphone.
Adding a 6th valve to a tuba that was designed to include one has been very problematic. The most obvious issue is the location of the levers. This horn was designed from the ground up to have a 5th actuated by the right thumb. As far as I can tell there are zero Kurath or Willson 3200s of this design that ever used a LH 5th valve lever. None. It was designed as an RT 5th from the get-go. This simplified things for Herr Kurath. It is not difficult to design a 5th for either hand on a rotary tuba, but when the valve is down at the bottom after the pistons, deep within the wrap of the tuba, it becomes a very big deal making it usable by either hand. You have to commit to one or the other; once decided, the option for the other becomes very expensive and can be pretty wonky, in a mechanical sense.
And I committed to both 5th and 6th being on the left hand after a lot of consideration.
Okay, so then, with pistons placing the rotors where they are, and the left hand having to be in one of a few places needed to hold and balance the horn, a new menu of options comes into play.
I decided, for a number of reasons, to go with the left hand being in the normal location to access the 1st slide, and then proceeded to design and build a lever system that would work that way.
Great.
Then I had to configure the linkages. I reused the 5th one )more or less) and then was left with only bad choices for the 6th because when I was deciding on the lever location I ordered a valve to be linked to the other side of the horn. I had to try and work around that decision. I made it work, too, but it was very clunky with some excess motion that I could not explain, and too much weight. The lever was heavy and slow, and there was excessive play and a tendency to lock up in the down position.
So now more options, all of which, again, seem to me to be pretty bad. I feel like I painted myself into a corner, and the only *real* solution was to start over with another valve that would solve everything.
So I sent Eva at Miraphone the "corrected" valve layout to get the bad news on Miraphone's post-pandemic global currency devaluation price for the vale and custom work.
Fingers crossed…
Once I have the valve (January or February, probably) I can then finish this monstrous project and have essentially a very large, factory-quality, nearly bespoke, six-valved piston F tuba.
What do I do with one of those?
Well, I liked it so much that I may sell the Adams and keep this one. Both have their issues, and it will be a matter of playing both on a lot of gigs to see which one feels better to me and whether any of my colleagues have any sort of feedback for either tuba.
As with the Holton, it is so much better than when I got it that I might sell the YamaYork and keep it. Remember that I have already served in my current chair for 32 years. Realistically — how much longer do I need really nice tubas? The answer is until I die because my mortgage will not be paid off until I am 72 years of age. But my health is such that I fear that I may die before the house is paid off. So, again, probably until I die.
Which may not be all that far into the future.
My house is in craptacular condition, in need of a new roof, lots of replacement boards for rotted wood, electrical work, wall and ceiling replacement, etc. It is a disaster. I also have to have about ten grand in asbestos abatement before any of this work can start. The sale of the Holton and Kurath would retire my current debt and pay for most of that, but not all of it. The sale of the two new horns could cover everything.
I wonder what I'm going to do…
Hmm…
Here is the layout of the new 6th valve for the Kurath, which I hope will be the LAST 6th valve for the Kurath.
[This has been one wild-assed ride, folks.]
I have tried to work out how to fix this situation at the lowest possible cost since this tuba will be up for sale once it is completed — and none of the obvious solutions will make me happy.
So I am ordering a THIRD custom-built rotary valve unit from Miraphone.
Adding a 6th valve to a tuba that was designed to include one has been very problematic. The most obvious issue is the location of the levers. This horn was designed from the ground up to have a 5th actuated by the right thumb. As far as I can tell there are zero Kurath or Willson 3200s of this design that ever used a LH 5th valve lever. None. It was designed as an RT 5th from the get-go. This simplified things for Herr Kurath. It is not difficult to design a 5th for either hand on a rotary tuba, but when the valve is down at the bottom after the pistons, deep within the wrap of the tuba, it becomes a very big deal making it usable by either hand. You have to commit to one or the other; once decided, the option for the other becomes very expensive and can be pretty wonky, in a mechanical sense.
And I committed to both 5th and 6th being on the left hand after a lot of consideration.
Okay, so then, with pistons placing the rotors where they are, and the left hand having to be in one of a few places needed to hold and balance the horn, a new menu of options comes into play.
I decided, for a number of reasons, to go with the left hand being in the normal location to access the 1st slide, and then proceeded to design and build a lever system that would work that way.
Great.
Then I had to configure the linkages. I reused the 5th one )more or less) and then was left with only bad choices for the 6th because when I was deciding on the lever location I ordered a valve to be linked to the other side of the horn. I had to try and work around that decision. I made it work, too, but it was very clunky with some excess motion that I could not explain, and too much weight. The lever was heavy and slow, and there was excessive play and a tendency to lock up in the down position.
So now more options, all of which, again, seem to me to be pretty bad. I feel like I painted myself into a corner, and the only *real* solution was to start over with another valve that would solve everything.
So I sent Eva at Miraphone the "corrected" valve layout to get the bad news on Miraphone's post-pandemic global currency devaluation price for the vale and custom work.
Fingers crossed…
Once I have the valve (January or February, probably) I can then finish this monstrous project and have essentially a very large, factory-quality, nearly bespoke, six-valved piston F tuba.
What do I do with one of those?
Well, I liked it so much that I may sell the Adams and keep this one. Both have their issues, and it will be a matter of playing both on a lot of gigs to see which one feels better to me and whether any of my colleagues have any sort of feedback for either tuba.
As with the Holton, it is so much better than when I got it that I might sell the YamaYork and keep it. Remember that I have already served in my current chair for 32 years. Realistically — how much longer do I need really nice tubas? The answer is until I die because my mortgage will not be paid off until I am 72 years of age. But my health is such that I fear that I may die before the house is paid off. So, again, probably until I die.
Which may not be all that far into the future.
My house is in craptacular condition, in need of a new roof, lots of replacement boards for rotted wood, electrical work, wall and ceiling replacement, etc. It is a disaster. I also have to have about ten grand in asbestos abatement before any of this work can start. The sale of the Holton and Kurath would retire my current debt and pay for most of that, but not all of it. The sale of the two new horns could cover everything.
I wonder what I'm going to do…
Hmm…
Here is the layout of the new 6th valve for the Kurath, which I hope will be the LAST 6th valve for the Kurath.
[This has been one wild-assed ride, folks.]
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
I'm in a voluble mood; this will be long. SORRY/NOT SORRY.
I got back into the shop to do ACTUAL WORK for the first time in many months. By way of example of my absence in there: the time changed recently and I snagged my little bench clock to correct it… and it had never been changed six months ago.
Uff, da…
So the first of the projects that is constipating my life is to finish the Kurath and then have a long-term shootout against the Adams to decide which one is the keeper. Both horns have their strong and weak points. I like both a lot, so this ought to be a fun process for me.
The issue is the outstanding 6th slide layout I designed that left me with a wonky, unenjoyable-to-use 6th linkage system that I had to iron out before I could even consider selling the horn. Likewise, if I keep it, then that system must work better and be more "svelte".
My purchases and designs were constantly being influenced by my designs and purchases. (Re-read that. It makes sense. Really. It does.)
Now that I have gotten everything assembled, levers mounted out in space on brackets that had to be both strong enough to support a paddle rack AND serve as a detachable brace between the bell and 1st slide, and hooked up all the levers and various contraptions I can shake it all out and FINALLY decide where things actually need to be placed, the exact angles of parts, the exact location of screw holes, the exact routing of the linkage arms…
Oh, and that last bit will require me to flip a valve that was designed to fit into a very specific location, at a specific angle, specific orientation, with the knuckles aimed in specific directions, with the ports having different internal bore sizes…
omfg…
So as posted in the thread above, I needed to get a new 6th valve to accommodate my new needs, clearly defined after I had a working horn to test out. I can finally see why prototyping takes so long and is so damnably expensive…
I got my needed valve… and it is not what I needed. I messed up the order. Actually, it was perfect, but once again I changed paths midstream, which led to the above diagram and an inquiry to Miraphone regarding price and turnaround time.
In short, I am too broke at the moment to order yet another valve. Later? No problem. But I need to get this DONE.
My choices, with the current valve with the port that points 90º off from where I *actually* need it to point are to un-braze the knuckle and re-braze it with the correct orientation, or cobble together a new slide. The surgery would likely work well as I have removed and turned knuckles a number of times in the past with great success. A new slide that could use the existing valve would require runners that would eat up a lot of the existing slide pull. I detest removing pull length from slides that have to be trimmed. So neither choice is what I would describe as "a good bet" and this is why it has taken me so long to fix this issue.
Today I looked at my Miraphone price estimate again, looked at the custom-made valve that is wrong, heaved a massive, self-pitying sigh, and got to work. I decided to try to cobble together the two runners that are as short as possible, then measure the friction-fit loop to figure out how much slide pull would have to be chopped out of the loop.
And it ended up being less horrible than I expected. It is still a very short slide, but a 6th valve is not something you move the slide for when you use it. In fact, you do not even use it all that often. It needs to be the correct length, to be tuned and forgotten. The slide is really for cleaning and maintenance. I know the old slide was bang-on in tune, so I want the new one to match, and then the slide pull only needs to be long enough to make alignment of the legs easy. My early guess is that the slide will have legs that are about 1.5" long. Not what I wanted, but it will work just fine. I just need to get off my high horse.
Here are some pics of what I came up with…
Here is the new runner to reorient the slide using the new valve. The ferrule will be about half that long and will fit better. (This is for a Jin Bao 410 and is a tad loose as the Miraclone is a bit larger than a real 186.)
This is the original 6th valve and slide, and you can see that the rotor faces in the opposite direction from the 5th valve, which is what I am changing.
Old 6th valve and slide…
New 6th valve and slide — Note how much longer this is. You can see how much has to be chopped out to make this work, but it *will* work.
New 6th valve and slide approximate orientation. It will be much shorter, and I think the slide will be out of the outer tubes when it is extended this far.
When cut and assembled I think that the two crooks will end up being more or less level, so the pull ring will stay so I can easily get it out.
Everything will fit without clearance issues, and even the rear piston caps can still be removed and the casings accessed if valve work ever has to be done. "NOICE!"
A little more context…
I got back into the shop to do ACTUAL WORK for the first time in many months. By way of example of my absence in there: the time changed recently and I snagged my little bench clock to correct it… and it had never been changed six months ago.
Uff, da…
So the first of the projects that is constipating my life is to finish the Kurath and then have a long-term shootout against the Adams to decide which one is the keeper. Both horns have their strong and weak points. I like both a lot, so this ought to be a fun process for me.
The issue is the outstanding 6th slide layout I designed that left me with a wonky, unenjoyable-to-use 6th linkage system that I had to iron out before I could even consider selling the horn. Likewise, if I keep it, then that system must work better and be more "svelte".
My purchases and designs were constantly being influenced by my designs and purchases. (Re-read that. It makes sense. Really. It does.)
Now that I have gotten everything assembled, levers mounted out in space on brackets that had to be both strong enough to support a paddle rack AND serve as a detachable brace between the bell and 1st slide, and hooked up all the levers and various contraptions I can shake it all out and FINALLY decide where things actually need to be placed, the exact angles of parts, the exact location of screw holes, the exact routing of the linkage arms…
Oh, and that last bit will require me to flip a valve that was designed to fit into a very specific location, at a specific angle, specific orientation, with the knuckles aimed in specific directions, with the ports having different internal bore sizes…
omfg…
So as posted in the thread above, I needed to get a new 6th valve to accommodate my new needs, clearly defined after I had a working horn to test out. I can finally see why prototyping takes so long and is so damnably expensive…
I got my needed valve… and it is not what I needed. I messed up the order. Actually, it was perfect, but once again I changed paths midstream, which led to the above diagram and an inquiry to Miraphone regarding price and turnaround time.
In short, I am too broke at the moment to order yet another valve. Later? No problem. But I need to get this DONE.
My choices, with the current valve with the port that points 90º off from where I *actually* need it to point are to un-braze the knuckle and re-braze it with the correct orientation, or cobble together a new slide. The surgery would likely work well as I have removed and turned knuckles a number of times in the past with great success. A new slide that could use the existing valve would require runners that would eat up a lot of the existing slide pull. I detest removing pull length from slides that have to be trimmed. So neither choice is what I would describe as "a good bet" and this is why it has taken me so long to fix this issue.
Today I looked at my Miraphone price estimate again, looked at the custom-made valve that is wrong, heaved a massive, self-pitying sigh, and got to work. I decided to try to cobble together the two runners that are as short as possible, then measure the friction-fit loop to figure out how much slide pull would have to be chopped out of the loop.
And it ended up being less horrible than I expected. It is still a very short slide, but a 6th valve is not something you move the slide for when you use it. In fact, you do not even use it all that often. It needs to be the correct length, to be tuned and forgotten. The slide is really for cleaning and maintenance. I know the old slide was bang-on in tune, so I want the new one to match, and then the slide pull only needs to be long enough to make alignment of the legs easy. My early guess is that the slide will have legs that are about 1.5" long. Not what I wanted, but it will work just fine. I just need to get off my high horse.
Here are some pics of what I came up with…
Here is the new runner to reorient the slide using the new valve. The ferrule will be about half that long and will fit better. (This is for a Jin Bao 410 and is a tad loose as the Miraclone is a bit larger than a real 186.)
This is the original 6th valve and slide, and you can see that the rotor faces in the opposite direction from the 5th valve, which is what I am changing.
Old 6th valve and slide…
New 6th valve and slide — Note how much longer this is. You can see how much has to be chopped out to make this work, but it *will* work.
New 6th valve and slide approximate orientation. It will be much shorter, and I think the slide will be out of the outer tubes when it is extended this far.
When cut and assembled I think that the two crooks will end up being more or less level, so the pull ring will stay so I can easily get it out.
Everything will fit without clearance issues, and even the rear piston caps can still be removed and the casings accessed if valve work ever has to be done. "NOICE!"
A little more context…
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
The 6th valve runners have been cut and assembled to the rotor casing. I had to drag out my little German miter saw to cut five identical ferrules, and the blade is not so good, so cleaning up the ends was a PITA, but it's done. I got things pretty darn close to what I want, and the tiny bit I dislike right now is easily fixed with some heat and gentle persuasion once the inner and outer slide legs have been measured and trimmed.
So far, so good…
In these pics many things are press-fit: 5th to 6th, 6th to 4th, the outer slide legs to the runners, while the runners are soldered in place, the 5th assembly is soldered together, and the 6th slide (while still way too long) is also soldered together.
So far, so good…
In these pics many things are press-fit: 5th to 6th, 6th to 4th, the outer slide legs to the runners, while the runners are soldered in place, the 5th assembly is soldered together, and the 6th slide (while still way too long) is also soldered together.
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
Tuesday morning:
I have the slide circuit measured, cut, and assembled. I have to do a ton of cleanup work and I need to remove the craptacular Kurath pull ring (to be replaced by a very nice, new Miraphone one made to fit that crook), and then I can rebuild the 5th circuit.
Two points…
1. The measurements I have on file do not jibe with what is on my horns. You need to be able to push in, so I usually consider a slide to be "in tune" with it pulled according to a formula I learned from Conn as a youngster. According to this CG Conn publication about their tubas, all instruments vary, and all slide lengths are a part of that variability, therefore it is good to have a starting point from which to work with a tuner. ACCORDING TO CONN: 1st should be pulled .750", 2nd pulled .375", 3rd should be pulled .500", and the main slide must be pulled 1" before you use a tuner. They claimed in that 1960s pamphlet that these were the factory-intended locations for these slides. THEN you should use your band's lovely StroboConn tuner to adjust things as needed to suit your horn and your face. (See how they tied in their other product? Cute suggestive selling, Mr. Conn.)
I usually use these numbers when I am herp-derping my way through my "idiot math" to figure out the length of each part as I cut. These have always worked for me. I set up all other slides to be pulled one inch, and if there is a question I will try to design in as much pullable slide length as I can.
So with that in mind, I have always thought the 5th on this Kurath was too long. Today I measured *my* 5th, which is an exact copy of Herr Kurath's, just using correctly sized Miraphone tubes for the Miraphone rotor I replaced the old one with, and LO! It is 1" longer than the chart says, and 2.5" longer than the 1st slides of my CC tubas.
The two CC tubas have slides that measure out 1.5" shorter than the measurement table I have used for years. This means that if both of my 1st slides are pulled out .750" they match the length indicated by the table of measurements — AND — they match the old Conn pamphlet's suggestion for a starting point when setting up the initial tuning settings of the instrument.
This means that the 5th circuit needs to be shortened by 1.25" per leg to push in far enough AND maintain some room to push in further if needed.
I currently have a "donut" 5th slide. Notably, Herr Kurath messed with the layout of his 5th slide on the Kurath as well as the later, nearly identical Willson 3200 (the earlier Kurath was happily ROTAX-free). On the final version, the 5th had a wrap that put it all at or above the valve level, with no downward-pointing section as in the current "donut" configuration. I greatly dislike the water trap of the current layout and will now rebuild it to remove that fun "feature".
As I cut the tubes needed for this I plan to excise the 2.5" of length while making the slide have a longer pull.
It's gonna rock, kids… <snicker>
Here is where I am as of lunchtime. The 6th crook is simply an uncut Miraphone 2nd crook shoved into the outer tubes to show how long it will be when completed. I intend to leave the slide alone for now, trimming the inner legs until it is the needed length. Later, I *might* replace the outer legs with ones that match the inners, but probably not as that would be a lot of work that is not needed (unless my OCD needs feeding).
I have the slide circuit measured, cut, and assembled. I have to do a ton of cleanup work and I need to remove the craptacular Kurath pull ring (to be replaced by a very nice, new Miraphone one made to fit that crook), and then I can rebuild the 5th circuit.
Two points…
1. The measurements I have on file do not jibe with what is on my horns. You need to be able to push in, so I usually consider a slide to be "in tune" with it pulled according to a formula I learned from Conn as a youngster. According to this CG Conn publication about their tubas, all instruments vary, and all slide lengths are a part of that variability, therefore it is good to have a starting point from which to work with a tuner. ACCORDING TO CONN: 1st should be pulled .750", 2nd pulled .375", 3rd should be pulled .500", and the main slide must be pulled 1" before you use a tuner. They claimed in that 1960s pamphlet that these were the factory-intended locations for these slides. THEN you should use your band's lovely StroboConn tuner to adjust things as needed to suit your horn and your face. (See how they tied in their other product? Cute suggestive selling, Mr. Conn.)
I usually use these numbers when I am herp-derping my way through my "idiot math" to figure out the length of each part as I cut. These have always worked for me. I set up all other slides to be pulled one inch, and if there is a question I will try to design in as much pullable slide length as I can.
So with that in mind, I have always thought the 5th on this Kurath was too long. Today I measured *my* 5th, which is an exact copy of Herr Kurath's, just using correctly sized Miraphone tubes for the Miraphone rotor I replaced the old one with, and LO! It is 1" longer than the chart says, and 2.5" longer than the 1st slides of my CC tubas.
The two CC tubas have slides that measure out 1.5" shorter than the measurement table I have used for years. This means that if both of my 1st slides are pulled out .750" they match the length indicated by the table of measurements — AND — they match the old Conn pamphlet's suggestion for a starting point when setting up the initial tuning settings of the instrument.
This means that the 5th circuit needs to be shortened by 1.25" per leg to push in far enough AND maintain some room to push in further if needed.
I currently have a "donut" 5th slide. Notably, Herr Kurath messed with the layout of his 5th slide on the Kurath as well as the later, nearly identical Willson 3200 (the earlier Kurath was happily ROTAX-free). On the final version, the 5th had a wrap that put it all at or above the valve level, with no downward-pointing section as in the current "donut" configuration. I greatly dislike the water trap of the current layout and will now rebuild it to remove that fun "feature".
As I cut the tubes needed for this I plan to excise the 2.5" of length while making the slide have a longer pull.
It's gonna rock, kids… <snicker>
Here is where I am as of lunchtime. The 6th crook is simply an uncut Miraphone 2nd crook shoved into the outer tubes to show how long it will be when completed. I intend to leave the slide alone for now, trimming the inner legs until it is the needed length. Later, I *might* replace the outer legs with ones that match the inners, but probably not as that would be a lot of work that is not needed (unless my OCD needs feeding).
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
The 5th loop will look more like this. The pullable length would be between the yellow lines.
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
Nearly to the point where I can reinstall these valves to the piston valve section. Here is where I am now. I need to do some color buffing and strapping. I need to swap the 6th pull ring for the nicer Miraphone nickel silver part. I need to add a short brace between the two slides. A brace between the two 6th legs would also be nice, but not necessary. Then I need to solder the two valves together.
Here is the hornporn…
Here is the hornporn…
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
I have to say this: I love your ability to dream/design in a 3D space, your attention to detail, and your Inability to compromise on your ideal in this endeavor!
Seeing your projects progress (backing up to the Holton Eb and 345) has been really enjoyable. I’ve valued not just your “here’s what I did”, but “here’s why I did it that way” and even your “this didn’t go the way I wanted and this is how I’m going to redesign it”.
Thank you for the insight you’ve given. Much appreciated!
Seeing your projects progress (backing up to the Holton Eb and 345) has been really enjoyable. I’ve valued not just your “here’s what I did”, but “here’s why I did it that way” and even your “this didn’t go the way I wanted and this is how I’m going to redesign it”.
Thank you for the insight you’ve given. Much appreciated!
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- the elephant (Tue Nov 12, 2024 8:06 pm)
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
What a great comment! Thank you, sir!
____________
Today I am sick with something, so I knocked off at lunch, ate, showered, and have been resting since then. I have Nurse Kitties in attendance. My timing was very good, if accidental. I work outdoors in my carport, and it started pouring rain as I dragged my buffing machine back inside. The carport is filled with water, as usual, so the timing worked out pretty well.
I braced the 6th slide with a little bead of solder where the two legs run pretty close together. The gap is wider than the solder is thick, so I had to use a trick to bridge that gap without having to fuss too much. I would like to add a real brace between the two outer slides, but am too lazy to make one. If it proves to be something this needs I can add one when it is on the horn because the access to that spot is pretty good.
The 5th unit as shown yesterday still had the much shorter original slide. Today I cut and lapped in new inner legs to go with the two new outer legs. The assembled slide works great.
I removed the cheesy pull ring that came on the 2nd slide of this tuba from the maker. I installed a new Miraphone 2nd slide pull ring. Since the 6th uses a Miraphone 2nd slide crook this fits quite nicely.
I found a leaking joint and had to fix that. Then I cleaned everything up. I am ready to put these back onto the piston section and brace them up. I will assemble the valve section to the bugle and then flux and press-fit the rotors, then the small MTS outer leg, then the MTS. Since the MTS is the link between the removable valves and the bugle it has to fit between them perfectly. So the rotors will be adjusted until the MTS outer tube lines up with the inner tube as perfectly as I can get it, then however the valves are oriented to the piston set is how they get soldered down, and then braces will be cut and installed as needed.
The rotor cases are nickel silver, so the only brass on this assembly are the crooks and the runners. Inner/outer slide tubes, ferrules, valves, and the brace on the 5th are all nickel silver. When buffed up, in the light in my bedroom it looks like these are all nickel silver, but they are not.
____________
Today I am sick with something, so I knocked off at lunch, ate, showered, and have been resting since then. I have Nurse Kitties in attendance. My timing was very good, if accidental. I work outdoors in my carport, and it started pouring rain as I dragged my buffing machine back inside. The carport is filled with water, as usual, so the timing worked out pretty well.
I braced the 6th slide with a little bead of solder where the two legs run pretty close together. The gap is wider than the solder is thick, so I had to use a trick to bridge that gap without having to fuss too much. I would like to add a real brace between the two outer slides, but am too lazy to make one. If it proves to be something this needs I can add one when it is on the horn because the access to that spot is pretty good.
The 5th unit as shown yesterday still had the much shorter original slide. Today I cut and lapped in new inner legs to go with the two new outer legs. The assembled slide works great.
I removed the cheesy pull ring that came on the 2nd slide of this tuba from the maker. I installed a new Miraphone 2nd slide pull ring. Since the 6th uses a Miraphone 2nd slide crook this fits quite nicely.
I found a leaking joint and had to fix that. Then I cleaned everything up. I am ready to put these back onto the piston section and brace them up. I will assemble the valve section to the bugle and then flux and press-fit the rotors, then the small MTS outer leg, then the MTS. Since the MTS is the link between the removable valves and the bugle it has to fit between them perfectly. So the rotors will be adjusted until the MTS outer tube lines up with the inner tube as perfectly as I can get it, then however the valves are oriented to the piston set is how they get soldered down, and then braces will be cut and installed as needed.
The rotor cases are nickel silver, so the only brass on this assembly are the crooks and the runners. Inner/outer slide tubes, ferrules, valves, and the brace on the 5th are all nickel silver. When buffed up, in the light in my bedroom it looks like these are all nickel silver, but they are not.
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
I just noticed that there is some solder that bled out of one of those many joints that I did not see and clean up.
Dammit…
Tomorrow…
Dammit…
Tomorrow…
Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
Elegant, elegant, elegant, Mr. Elephant.
If you decided to do this sort of work full time, you’d have people lined up waiting for your attention.
If you decided to do this sort of work full time, you’d have people lined up waiting for your attention.
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
Thanks for the kind words! I earned about half of my income from this work for well over a decade, from 1995 to about 2004 at 40+ hours a week, and then part-time for many years after that. I started up a shop in 2012, but the local customers are of the hated slimicus poormouthicus variety, and I quickly tired of having to get them to pay the amount they agreed to on the estimate forms. I would make the estimate and they would approve the work, then when I was done they would try to bargain with me, like I am some kind of blanket seller in a Mexican Mercado or something. The price is the price. I do not want your damned chicken or pig in trade, bubba. US Dollars only, please. My work was easily worth what I was charging, too. These folks see kindness as a weakness to be exploited.
Had I started my shop in a higher quality community I might still be doing this work every day. But I chose poorly.
Economically, most of Mississippi is still not ready to join the world of 1980, much less the one of 2000. And you can totally forget about "Today" — and, of course, "Today" is where I live and I pay my bills. I have never charged as much as the local automotive goons. But my experience was so negative that I just stopped.
I flipped horns on eBay for a few years, but now I don't even like to do that. I only work for myself nowadays. Playing full-time in a small symphony orchestra takes up too much of my time, anyway. COVID taught me that living a life of "poverty with freedom" is superior to working for — or with — stress-inducing idiots, regardless of remuneration levels.
Also, my eyesight is failing, so I am too slow at this to turn a profit these days.
Had I started my shop in a higher quality community I might still be doing this work every day. But I chose poorly.
Economically, most of Mississippi is still not ready to join the world of 1980, much less the one of 2000. And you can totally forget about "Today" — and, of course, "Today" is where I live and I pay my bills. I have never charged as much as the local automotive goons. But my experience was so negative that I just stopped.
I flipped horns on eBay for a few years, but now I don't even like to do that. I only work for myself nowadays. Playing full-time in a small symphony orchestra takes up too much of my time, anyway. COVID taught me that living a life of "poverty with freedom" is superior to working for — or with — stress-inducing idiots, regardless of remuneration levels.
Also, my eyesight is failing, so I am too slow at this to turn a profit these days.
Last edited by the elephant on Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
I'd really love to chat with you at some point about your home shop set-up, tools, etc. You inspire me!the elephant wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:17 am Thanks for the kind words! I did this for a living for over a decade, from 1995 to about 2004, and I started up a shop in 2011, but the local customers are of the hated "poor-mouth" variety and I quickly tired of having to get them to pay the amount they agreed to on the estimate forms. I would make the estimate and they would approve the work, then when I was done they would try to bargain with me, like I am some kind of blanket seller in a Mexican Mercado or something. The price is the price. I do not want your damned chicken or pig in trade, bubba. US Dollars only, please.
Economically, most of Mississippi is still not ready to join the world of 1980, much less the one of 2000. You can forget about today, and today is the place where I have to pay my bills. I have never charged as much as the local automotive goons. But my experience was so negative that I just stopped.
I flipped horns on eBay for a few years, but now I don't even like to do that. I only work for myself nowadays. Playing full-time in a small symphony orchestra takes up too much of my time, anyway. COVID taught me that living a life of "poverty with freedom" is superior to working for — or with — stress-inducing idiots, regardless of remuneration levels.
Also, my eyesight is failing; I am too slow at this to turn a profit theses days.
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Blake
Bean Hill Brass
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Re: Kurath F — Reimagined 6th Slide
sidebar: vision
My only short comment is that both of us are dealing with the eyesight thing. We're fortunate - so far - to not to have a chronic disease which contributes to that, and are only aging. We're both getting by pretty well without cataract surgery so far, but eventually we'll both probably either get the expensive surgery (if we can afford it?) or - if we can't - we'll both choose the option of being able to see very well up close, even though everyone seems to try to talk us into the opposite. The fact is that they (who are trying to offer good advice) are not us. We have purchased some of those magnifiers that you see old jewelers wear, and - yes - we are actually using them from time to time. With really good light, it's pretty handy to have something super magnified without having to hold a magnifying glass, because so many jobs require two hands.
end of sidebar.
Please do NOT comment on this comment, and please ONLY comment on the Swiss instrument which is being imaginatively enhanced.
My only short comment is that both of us are dealing with the eyesight thing. We're fortunate - so far - to not to have a chronic disease which contributes to that, and are only aging. We're both getting by pretty well without cataract surgery so far, but eventually we'll both probably either get the expensive surgery (if we can afford it?) or - if we can't - we'll both choose the option of being able to see very well up close, even though everyone seems to try to talk us into the opposite. The fact is that they (who are trying to offer good advice) are not us. We have purchased some of those magnifiers that you see old jewelers wear, and - yes - we are actually using them from time to time. With really good light, it's pretty handy to have something super magnified without having to hold a magnifying glass, because so many jobs require two hands.
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