' remember - back in the early 70's and into the 80's - when people described Yamaha as "pretty good for the money" ?

[bloke]

ie.
"They are 'sorta ok' quality, but - at least - they're low-cost?"

well...
Particular ones of those are the only ones that peak my interest.
I own an EARLY (red paint engraving - fine threads - metal guides) YEP-321 and a YBL-322 (Conn 72H knockoff) bass trombone.

Trumpet players are - just now - beginning to RE-discover the (6/7-series) lightweight Schilke-esque trumpets that Yamaha made "back then".

tubas...?? nope, nope, and nope...nope-to-all
with the exception of one like Wade's.

OK...the YFB-621 is "fair" (B-), but the tuning is still too wonky to suit me.
...if (??) that, a better choice ($$$$) is probably a well-copied Chinese one.

Who ELSE is old enough to remember when Japanese was the equivalent of today's (and mostly, the cheapest) Chinese...??

I bought a Japanese Epiphone, and - honestly - it took me a pretty good while to "get over" it being Japanese...and the same for the classic guitar that I later bought (which I later gave away and picked - up - of all things - a USA-made GUILD (not particularly known for their) classic guitar )...Frankly, the Guild was/is louder, and the louder sound is also a better sound.

[Schlitzz]

When you’re 70, trying to remember the ‘70’s?!

Geezus.

[bloke]

Someday, I'm going to like you just as much as you like me. You obviously are crazy about me, as you're always clicking on all my posts and offering such astonishing responses. If you wait long enough, I may learn to adore you as much as you obviously adore me.

If you're still around, I'll check back with you when I'm 70, and see if your feelings are still as strong as they are now.

[Schlitzz]

Just reminding you that if we remembered the late ‘70’s, we’re over the age of 55.

[bloke]

true.

You come on strong.

Give me time, and I'll learn better how to read you.

[Dents Be Gone!]

Yamaha trumpets and high brass were still a decent deal in the early 1990s.

The horizontal slide (‘student’) flugelhorn was excellent.

The 621/622 bass trombones (dependent trigger Conn/King copies) were still good.

The compact rotary 4/4 C that looked like a hodgepodge of parts could be quite good as well. Those don’t turn up much anymore. I think production ended on those in the late 1980s? I remember it still being in the catalogs.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

The original YBL 321 bass trombone was a good instrument. People still look for them.

You probably glanced at my thread where I brought a ybl-322 bell section back from the dead and mated it with a tuning in the slide duo bore California Olds bass trombone slide. The 322 and 321 - I'm thinking - only differ in that the 322 has a yellow brass bell (??), which is more like the (72H) Conn it copies. I like the sound of it a lot, and I'm grateful that - as bad as it was all crushed up - I was able to put it all back right. That's the same one that I'm doing a nutty thing - whereby I'm building a six valve cimbasso valve set for it. Anyway... back to your s point, the 321/322 bell sections really sound nice, and I think it's probably mostly because they sound like Conn.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

I REALLY like that really creative way to add a dependent valve to the classic single rotor wrap without tearing everything apart.

I like the YBL-321/322 basses.

They are very much like Conn 72H, and I like the (conservative vs. 6XH, which I still like OK) Elkhart-style 71/72/73H bell's sound.

I've read a whole bunch of jazz on the fb bass trombone page from people in denial that Yamaha was (simply) copying a 72H...whatever.
I view that as "put forth by people who don't wish to embrace the fact that their instrument is a copy of another instruments. (If an excellent copy, wth?)

I have a 322, I'm really glad that it sounds like 72H (as it certainly looks like one), and - in particular - I'm glad that I was able to get it (though I had to bring it back from the dead) in exchange for a handful of euphonium valve caps.

(My early life orchestral low brass section mentor was a Remington protégé 73H (same instrument, other than two valves, and different plumbing) player, a particularly excellent player, and that's the bass trombone sound that remains in my head to this day...(OK...though I also really like the sound of those 6XH fatter-throated gold-brass-bell Conn models, as well as the 6XH models' ancient/illusive predecessor, the 70H). I also like the sound of a (well-played, obviously) Schilke 59 mouthpiece, just fwiw. (bowl-shaped, just large enough, just the right amount of this/that/the-other in the sonic bouquet).

[dp]

No. No one said "pretty good for the money" about Yamaha tubas in the 70's. They did not. C'mon already.
Now, incessant trolling to initiate any traffic,
zinging anyone who calls out that that type of recreation,
or posting 3x-26x more than the most active members of this forum?
Why, that's entertainment!

[bloke]

No. No one said "pretty good for the money" about Yamaha tubas in the 70's. They did not. C'mon already.
Now, incessant trolling to initiate any traffic,
zinging anyone who calls out that that type of recreation,
or posting 3x-26x more than the most active members of this forum?
Why, that's entertainment!

euphoniums/their fanciest trumpets/beginner saxes, @dp

==============================================

The first time I saw a new/shiny YBB-321 was in 1978.
I was teaching a high school kid in Topeka, KS.
I played it for a minute or so, and thought wth...(!?!?)
I'm not sure if - back then - there wasn't much more than that one, the YBB-201, the YBB-621 had also come out (I played one, and couldn't believe the G - up in the staff), The YEP-321, and the YEP-201 (maybe also the YBH-201 and bell-front YEP-211...??)

They called that stuff "background brass"...

[Mary Ann]

I also own a YBL 322 bass trombone. Which I got because Doug Yeo recommended it for me -- in the days before rotten rude teenagers drove him permanently off the internet. The slide on mine is not perfect after someone borrowed it and apparently let his kid mess with it. I'd let it go pretty cheap now because no way am I lifting that thing enough to play it anywhere.

[bloke]

I really like my 322, even though the slide is from a California Olds duo bore bass trombone, and is necessarily a heavy slide due to being one of the tuning in the slide types of slides... in addition to anything made by F E Olds and Sons being heavy anyway.

I didn't follow that person's blogs, but I believe I heard about some hubbub about them claiming that only past jazz musicians with a certain type of physical appearances were allowed to write compositions with glissandos in them for trombones, or something like that...One can only imagine the cringing that went on during performances of a certain Bartok piece.


You were generous to offer to loan out that instrument, but I just don't ever do that. In particular, I don't loan out trombones for the same reason that I would never loan out a manual transmission car. I would "automatically" assume that the playing slide would come back messed up and that the clutch would come back messed up.

[Finetales]

Trumpet players are - just now - beginning to RE-discover the (6/7-series) lightweight
Schilke-esque trumpets that Yamaha made "back then".

They are a bit more than just Schilke-esque - Schilke not only designed them but made many of them himself. As I understand it, the horns with an "A" suffix in the serial number were made at the Schilke factory, while the ones with no suffix were made by Yamaha in Japan. Either way, those horns are pretty much just Schilkes with Yamaha written on the bell.

My YTR-737 has the A serial number, and plays just like a Schilke B5...because it is one! It's been my main trumpet for a few years and it does not let me down. Plus, it was about 1/4 the price of a used Schilke.

I've owned a few older Yamahas. My YCR-2310 cornet (probably late '80s) looks like a forgettable student cornet (no Shepherd's crook), but has one of the darkest, British cornet sounds this side of a Besson Prestige. And it was $58. I used to have a YMP-201 circular mellophone from the '80s that was easily the best circular mellophone I've ever played...not that that's a high bar.

Now that the old Yamahas are mostly very affordable second-hand, it seems they've fallen back into the same niche they had when they were new. Except for the older Yamaha bass trombones...everyone knows those are good so they are priced accordingly. In my opinion they are not just good, but
much better than what they're making now. The 611, 612, 613, 613H, 630G, 8130...all play circles around the 830 or 835.

[MiBrassFS]

I “remember - back in the early 70's and into the 80's - when people” decided to dump their baritones and buy a Yamaha YEP-321 euphonium or dump their wonky F or Eb and buy a YEB-321 Eb. There was a ton of that around here. I still have one of each from back then and still compare most things to them. There’s better out there for lots of $$$$$, but you really have to spend to get more. Not fashionable, but very dependable.

[bloke]

I picked up at 321 euphonium way back in the late '70s - which was silver plated and looked new - for about 300 bucks. I got some limited use out of it, but sold it later. I currently own an ugly brown 321 euphonium that is solid mechanically (built back during that same era) and really doesn't feature any significant denting. I think I spent $100 for it several years ago, put it in the attic, forgot about it, and then retrieved it. They're not the most wonderful as far as tuning, but they are really easy to play. Mine is sort of my emergency euphonium - for when I encounter not only stuff that should be played on the euphonium but is particularly high in tessitura. Instruments made during that time featured nickel-plated valves, and it wasn't uncommon for the nickel plating to fail and bubble up from the piston surfaces. That happened to the $300 one that I owned (with the valves sticking), and I bought replacement pistons that were relatively cheap. The replacements were monel, and they were the ones that tended to collect brass oxide from the casings, turn greenish-brown, and stick (until they were cleaned off).

I feel like I have a memory of owning a 321 E-flat as well, but for not very long. The A natural dead end in the low range (and no false tones) defines them not particularly useful as a tuba, at least not to me... The 381 was their solution for that (with an oddball length dependent 5th), but short-lived when they came out with the 631 3 + 1 compensating model. In my opinion, they should have stopped right there. I think that was the best E-flat compensating tuba they ever made.

Yamaha piston casings on large instruments have always tended to be thin wall, which doesn't allow for any room for a relief area at the top or bottom, with many other makes featuring a relief area. This defines that when there is lime build up above or below the pistons' position at rest, enough lime can actually build up that the Yamaha pistons can go up and down and play the instrument, but are sort of stuck in the instrument. I've noticed that they've gone back to nickel plating and when I look at the pistons I see a little tapered in area at the top and bottom, which I suppose is their solution to that issue.

I'm pretty sure that I've discovered that all of the large instrument nickel plated pistons in the student category - which includes marching instruments - are (these days) completely lead soldered together, which defines that - if any heat is required in any type of piston repair - I've got to be pretty cautious.

I don't know anything about their student and marching instruments which continue to be labeled made in Japan, but there are things about them that to me just don't look like the earlier versions of the same models which probably were completely made in Japan. I wonder what minimum requirements there are to be able to stamp made in Japan on Japanese products.

[MiBrassFS]

I have the YEB set up to solve any length issue it would ever encounter. They were the universal bass tuba around here for many years until things and folks got fancier. Local big orchestra guy lead the way with them.

[bloke]

Back when not that large a percentage of tuba players knew about B&S F tubas, I had picked up one with a 4 + 2 configuration, which just about completely eliminates any tuning compromises (particularly as the instrument itself offers such good tuning in the first place). I've played just about every model of E-flat and F tubas they and most others have come out since, and they're just isn't anything that compares as far as ease of playing, sonority, and being fully chromatic, as well as offering an in tune low range.

For playing in small sit-down 1920s-1930s jazz combos and a few other applications, I have a (rare) 1958 detachable recording bell English Besson 3+1 compensating E-flat. The tuning is good enough, and the type of sonority (as well as the visual) fit in with that type of music. The pistons are an extraordinarily good condition. I'm not going to mention what I paid for it. I also put together a 19-inch upright bell for this same instrument by trading for an English-made Sterling B-flat bell, cutting it, and attaching a genuine English Besson male collar to the bottom of it. In particular applications, these small jazz combos sometimes have trouble hearing the recording bell (as it's directional), they all know that I own an upright bell, and they actually have asked me to go out to the car and fetch it, occasionally. Not for the entire cruise but just during embarking, I worked in a cruise ship lounge for several years - which - various ships - tended to be a large room with a low ceiling. The recording bell worked out quite well at that job. When I perform with such combos outdoors, the recording bell tends to save the day - as far as the patrons being able to hear the tuba.

[MiBrassFS]

The B&S F tubas (of any era) weren’t really the go-to around here despite the obvious ease of purchase (the distributor being relatively local). They were what people came to town to buy and then left with. I’m sure people must have had them in some volume, but I can’t name one person who owned one. They remain foreign to me to this day. I saw more RM, Yamaha, etc. (even some HB) F tubas. Saw lots of YEB’s. Back then, Yamaha had a big presence in Grand Rapids, so they were “local”, too, in a way. We saw their prototypes regularly.

I had a bell front, 3 valve, noncomp, Besson Eb briefly. It was possible the LOUDEST tuba I’ve ever played. Valves were trashed. I fiddled around with swapping them out for a 3+1 compensating set, but couldn’t find satisfactory parts.