Eb tubas

[aarongsmith]

I've spent a lot of time with the Besson 983, Willson 3400FA-5, Eastman EBE853, and the 3400 Capet. All of them are really nice tubas and there are more good examples then bad in my experience. The Besson, Willson, and Eastman are all pretty good "do-it-all" horns. As in, if I had to own just one tuba, my Willson would probably be it. I never thought that I would become the Eb for everything player and that is was just a bunch of grumpy old men saying it. But only schlepping one horn is great, even if it is one of the heavier horns I've owned. I do find that I have to manipulate some slides in the low register, unless I use the fifth valve extension. However, I cannot stand how the fifth valve with the extension blocks my reach to the first valve.

I will say if I had to do more solo literature, like I did in college, I would definitely look for a Norwegian Star or the Willson 3400 Capet. It sounds more like the 2250 or a Petruschka, and compared to the larger Marty Erikson 3400 slots a little better in the high register. It sounds more F tuba-ish, so it may be a little better in orchestra.

FWIW Baltimore Brass should have a Willson 3400 Capet in stock, they just picked it up from my store a couple of weeks ago. Plus that was a really, really nice tuba.

[bloke]

I really liked the people who worked at that Michigan Yamaha location.
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Everyone has their own tastes, but when it comes to a 19 inch compensating E-flat, I would pick something other than Yamaha 632, but that 17-inch bell 631 was a sweet thing. When tubas aren't very tall, I tend not to notice whether or not they are thick walled and heavy. My 32-inch tall Holton B flat may be something with which I got carried away, because I put caps on both bows, (long: harvested from F. E. Olds contras) ribs on both bows, and of course it has a fifth valve. The thing weighs over 24 lb, but it doesn't bother me at all, because - it being short - I'm not having any issues when I play it trying to balance it and hold it up in playing position. Thus, I never noticed that/if the 631 was heavy, and I've never noticed that subsequent ones that I've sold for people were, either.
something else: Every used 631 that I've ever flipped was dented up somewhat, and I never noticed - including using magnet techniques - that they were particularly thick or difficult to smooth out. (I don't always notice things, so maybe I just haven't noticed.)

Reacting to something else that you said, a 15-in bell compensating E-flat may well be the best E-flat alternative for an F tuba, if someone is viewing an E-flat tuba as an F tuba alternative (though I personally never viewed E-flat tubas in that way). Sadly, once John Fletcher stuck a 19-in bell on his E-flat, no one seems to offer 15-in bell E-flats anymore -:other than still being able to order the 321 Yamaha - which features a practical range only down to A natural or so.

Those 15-in Yamaha 321 E flat tuba bells (as parts) are expensive to buy new, but it might be worth it to someone (again: someone who is looking towards an E-flat as an F alternative) to purchase one of those and convert a 19-inch 3 + 1 compensating to a 15 inch...(??) ... I haven't measured, but the various Chinese standard size 3 + 1 E-flat compensating tubas with 19-in bells - as well as the German Besson and the English Besson of the past - all seem to be right at the same size, so a wild guess would be that the Yamaha 321 15-in bell might fit into most of them - if not all of them...(??)

[aarongsmith]

Reacting to something else that you said, a 15-in bell compensating E-flat may well be the best E-flat alternative for an F tuba, if someone is viewing an E-flat tuba as an F tuba alternative (though I personally never viewed E-flat tubas in that way). Sadly, once John Fletcher stuck a 19-in bell on his E-flat, no one seems to offer 15-in bell E-flats anymore -:other than still being able to order the 321 Yamaha - which features a practical range only down to A natural or so.

Those 15-in Yamaha 321 E flat tuba bells (as parts) are expensive to buy new, but it might be worth it to someone (again: someone who is looking towards an E-flat as an F alternative) to purchase one of those and convert a 19-inch 3 + 1 compensating to a 15 inch...(??) ... I haven't measured, but the various Chinese standard size 3 + 1 E-flat compensating tubas with 19-in bells - as well as the German Besson and the English Besson of the past - all seem to be right at the same size, so a wild guess would be that the Yamaha 321 15-in bell might fit into most of them - if not all of them...(??)

I only mention the F substitute because not everybody has the financial bandwidth to own two bass tubas. Not to mention how confusing it can be to switch between Eb and F fingerings. I agree with you on the big bell Eb, even though I am not a compensating Eb fan, much less a 3+1 configured tuba fan. I've just never found it very comfortable. I think the only way to make an Eb not be a small contrabass replacement is a 15-17in bell. I'm still saving up for a new F tuba, but my tastes are particular to handmade German F tubas and they ain't cheap. My Eb is more reflective of the practical needs I have as a gigging player.

Also to your point about weight, I agree. The "little" Willson Capet feels more dense but easier to handle, versus my horn feels a little more cumbersome. It was a nice fit for me sat on my leg and the receiver was at the perfect playing position (actually similar to their little F tuba too). But if I was going to replace my Willson it would be with a Norwegian Star , but I got too good of a deal to let my horn go for now.

The Yamaha YEB-321 is good horn if you can find a one cheap and happen to know a capable, custom-job tolerant repair tech to add a dependent fifth valve. I know as someone who sells Yamaha I should be careful about what I say, but the current pricing is a little untenable for a horn that is that limited.

[MiBrassFS]

The 15” Yamaha bell will fit as it’s dimensionally the same as the 15” Imperial bell. It’s also a similarly stout bell, too. I have both here.

There have been a number of versions of the 632. Just like the Besson equivalents, some struck me as dull, some were delightful. I imagine there’s a method to these manufacturers’ madness to NOT change numbers in some way when updates occur to their products. It would make it easier for buyers if they did, but, then again, maybe that’s the intent, to not help buyers differentiate… Meinl Weston, Miraphone, Yamaha, etc. all have done this. I’m not saying they’re guilty of some sleight of hand, but it can be a bit murky sometimes.

A little addition/edit… The bells aren’t currently for sale separately (At least, not yet…) as they go with tubas.

[bloke]

re: 3+1 comfort:

I can't play them, unless I rest them on (top of) my left thigh.

Setting them between the thighs (at least, not for me) doesn't work.

Setting one of those on my LEFT thigh...I can sit up straight...I can slouch...I can play one of those things all day.

' same with the big B-flat 3+1 things...

The ONLY ones that are tough for me to deal with are the OLD (probably mostly made for export to the USA) B-flats with the 24-inch detachable recording bells. I still rest them up on my left thigh, but that bell (with all that weight pulling SIDEWAYS) is felt.

Others know that I own a (rare) 22" recording bell compensating E-flat. That bell is lower, smaller, and the "weight pulling sideways" thing isn't an issue.

"learning to deal with 3+1"

The human mind can do incredible things, and many people underestimate that of which they are (easily) capable.
My various instruments, are 3-valve, four-valve, 4+1 (5th being a compensating whole tone), 4+1 (4th being a compensating semitone), 4+1 (with a 2nd slide trigger), 3+1 compensating E-flat, 3+1 compensating B-flat, 3+1 compensating euphonium, and 4+2 F (compensating whole tone and semitone in the left hand, with right hand thumb 5th slide trigger). There are three BB-flats, one E-flat, two F instruments, and several B-flat (trombone/euphonium length). I played C instruments for about 48 years (until recently) but recently sold a "dream" C to buy a "dream" B-flat. In not-so-distant past, I owned two C instruments.
Of course, all of these instruments' individual tuning quirks are diverse.

...It's just not hard, and - not being hard - this shouldn't be interpreted as any sort of bragging...

I can only speak fairly good English. I know people who speak/write in seven or eight languages (second nature) and several more "pretty good".
Learning different brass button-mashing and instrument lengths is less than elementary, compared to the mastery of languages.
A repair guy - who was my boss for one year, had a motto:
" ' ain't nuthin' to it - but to do it."

Finally, you state that your current issues are financial, but - hopefully - they won't always be.

[2nd tenor]

I really really appreciate the advice from everyone. Im going into my second year in college. It’s not very common in Louisiana to play Eb, but I like it lol. I’ve been busy working in two repair shops last week(school shop and a M&A) so and haven’t been able to check on this post or reply but I will say from what I’ve read, I think my best plan of action is to save up some money and hunt down a Wilson or Miraphone, or Wessex. I could mabey(with some help) build one, but not the quality I’d want.

Thank you for responding with more details. I take it that you are a young student with next to no spare cash, my guess is that you are not doing a music degree because otherwise your Professors would have specified what you were expected to play and you’d already have it - but maybe I misunderstand.

As a knee jerk reaction I’d advise you to steer clear of the Wessex Tubas, my little experience of them is that they look like traditional 3 + 1 Tubas but don’t quite match up to them. I suspect that there’s a variation in build quality - too uncertain to take a risk on.

After you’ve graduated and got established in your career your finances should be much improved, but that’s six or seven years away. So you don’t need to buy a forever Tuba now because that purchase happens later (when you have money). What you need now is something that’ll get you through the next few years, etc.

Recently I heard some old song lyrics: “ you can’t always get what you want, but if you try you might find you get what you need”. <— seems pretty true to me. As such keep your eyes open for what’s about, don’t focus on brands and models - besides ones to avoid - and keep an open mind on what you’ll buy. If you get into repair work that’ll change what’s practical for you to buy - and maybe restore - but turn away the stuff that’ll never sound good or needs repair work outside your current skill set / repair budget.

Three valve non-compensating Eb’s usually go for relatively little; I have one of those too and it’s really surprising what music you can get out of them. So far I haven’t figured a way to add more valves to it, but a brass technician might and maybe you might get to do that work on your own instrument ….

[gocsick]

Three valve non-compensating Eb’s usually go for relatively little; I have one of those too and it’s really surprising what music you can get out of them. So far I haven’t figured a way to add more valves to it, but a brass technician might and maybe you might get to do that work on your own instrument ….

I picked up my 3 valve Holton medium in a trade to an instrument repair tech for some tools I wasn't using. He originally wanted to sell it $750 cash (what her paid for it a while back) and had no takers. It is so much fun to play... if you don't mind don't mind wow a few alternate fingerings and lipping to work around wonky intonation. I love the sound of it

He actually managed to find an original 3+1 valve set (non-compensating) in near perfect shape for it and it's going to be removing the worn original valves and covering it over.

I paid $300 for my Eb Holton sousa and again it is also a blast to play. I take it to a monthly Dixieland jam whenever I am able to attend. Sometimes it comes to the street band gigs when we have enough tuba coverage and I play the tuba basslines up the octave or double second trombone parts on it.

[Tuba1153]

I cannot believe I am actually saying this, but I have been playing exclusively Eb (and some BBb) for the last several years, and I love my Eb tubas. I have used them on everything from Orchestra, Band, Brass Band, Quintet, Quartet, to Jazz Band. I have a Big Mouth Brass Eb and a Boosey & Hawkes Imperial (w/ a Mike Johnson “John Fletcher” lead pipe).

For most stuff, I use Joe’s Imperial Mouthpiece. That seems to help project a more “British sound.” But for the big “a faux-BBb” sound (Faux-Bee, as we call it) I use Joe’s Symphony or Doug Houser’s Warren Deck Stainless mouthpiece. Both of my Eb’s can crank out the brown. @Doc can confirm.

[Doc]

I cannot believe I am actually saying this, but I have been playing exclusively Eb (and some BBb) for the last several years, and I love my Eb tubas. I have used them on everything from Orchestra, Band, Brass Band, Quintet, Quartet, to Jazz Band. I have a Big Mouth Brass Eb and a Boosey & Hawkes Imperial (w/ a Mike Johnson “John Fletcher” lead pipe).

For most stuff, I use Joe’s Imperial Mouthpiece. That seems to help project a more “British sound.” But for the big “a faux-BBb” sound (Faux-Bee, as we call it) I use Joe’s Symphony or Doug Houser’s Warren Deck Stainless mouthpiece. Both of my Eb’s can crank out the brown. @Doc can confirm.

I can confirm!

Mike sounds great on his Imperial in the brass band. The above recording features Mike (supersonic soaring stuff) and Giancarlo on Eb bass and Brandon and me on Bb bass. Mike provides that supersonic stuff and I provide the brown notes.

[2nd tenor]

You guys in Houston can certainly play . As a rule I won’t listen to others playing (rather be playing myself) but I’ve just made a mental note to set an hour aside to listen to those two videos.

For the OP I’d encourage the enjoyment of the Eb Tuba and focus on what it does better than the BBb (like those soaring notes that sound so well out of a Tuba and the very useful overlap with Trombones) - some of which you don’t need a fourth valve for. IMHO the Eb also articulates easier than BBb’s too, which gives both a certain desired crispness to the sound and supports the BBb’s.

[MiBrassFS]

On Yamaha Michigan, John Fletcher, etc…

I really liked the people who worked at that Michigan Yamaha location.
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Everyone has their own tastes, but when it comes to a 19 inch compensating E-flat, I would pick something other than Yamaha 632…

Given your well documented general distaste for Yamaha and access to dealer cost on a good alternative, that makes perfect sense to me!

The Michigan Yamaha location was cool. They used to offer a tour. At the end of the tour everyone was handed a bunch of swag, including a nice ceramic mug that said something like “I toured Yamaha Michigan.” I wish I could find mine…

Reacting to something else that you said, a 15-in bell compensating E-flat may well be the best E-flat alternative for an F tuba, if someone is viewing an E-flat tuba as an F tuba alternative (though I personally never viewed E-flat tubas in that way). Sadly, once John Fletcher stuck a 19-in bell on his E-flat, no one seems to offer 15-in bell E-flats anymore -:other than still being able to order the 321 Yamaha - which features a practical range only down to A natural or so.

Most everyone recognized JF as the leading player, to be sure. Seems like his adoption of bigger instruments, like his Holton 345, helped kill off the smaller belled instruments, too. Conn large bore trombones had caught on in London as well. Denis Wick had begun using them and led the way along with others. No more small bore G bass trombones... As the brass section “grew,” it was a natural progression for the 19” bell Eb to become the default. They all tried to keep up.

Not too long ago, Besson tried to bring back a narrower bell for a bit with the 3+1 Besson 980. Aimed at the soloist and orchestra bass tuba market (exactly as you suggest for a 15” swap), it used the 17” bell off of the 983. Like everything else deemed extraneous, it seems to be gone from the catalog, too.

[wagnertuba262]

IMO. There are already some good advice and responses. Also, I am sure your teacher has good suggestions and knows you better than any one on this board, including me.

My bass tuba E-flat preference is the one I have had since 1988, a 3+1 1970 era Besson, with a 15-inch bell, and small shank lead pipe. I have found a Wick 4 or Wick 5 (small shank) works best because it helps with the a few flat notes above the staff as well as an added brightness that is closer to an F-tuba IMO. These tend to be rare when in very good/pretty condition. It is the brightest sounding e-flat I have tried, but not as bright compared to my MW2182 F-tuba. Each has advantages over the other depending on the music.

If I was currently looking for an e-flat, based on my taste that I mentioned above, and a limited budget, I would consider play testing these tubas. Hopefully you are located close enough to play test:

--Check out Dillon (NJ) selling a 15-inch Besson 3+1 with soft case for $2495 (https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-besson ... 32195.html). As a caveat, you will need to get a small shank mouthpiece like a Wick (4, 5, 3). Older Bessons are made very well and built to last, but I would suggest you ask Matt Walters (at Dillons) what he thinks about the condition, including valve condition, and then decide with your teacher if it is worth a test.

--Consider looking for a used Yamaha 321 E-flat (4-inline top valve). I have known some past prominent players using the Yamaha 321 (15-inch bell non-comp) as a bass tuba in orchestra for some works as well as trombone doublers. I have seen these come up for a reasonable price maybe 3-4K, but am not sure about the market these days. For me, I still prefer the 3+1 Comp, but others may differ.

If the 15-inch bells sound too small for your taste maybe test these. However these might be getting in the upper budget range:

—Demo Eastman Model EBE853 Eb Tuba or used Besson 983 - Eastman seems to look to be a similar design to the 983. I never played an Eastman but liked the Besson when I tried one in 2002. I think Dillon had a good price on an Eastman Demo a few weeks back (Maybe 5-plus K??). Maybe a demo would fit the budget and worth a play test when/if they list a demo or have a deal on new. A used 983 e-flat price will depend on condition and seller. Both have a bigger bell (17) and likely a broader sound than a 15-inch, but the Yamaha 822 F-tuba is a larger F and maybe this E-flat might be closer to a bigger F sound you might favor (??). Others (repairmen, teacher, non sponsored owners) will have better knowledge about Eastman build quality than me, but I have heard Eastman are decent quality.

[Grumpikins]

Just my 2 cents....

If I had a do-over back to freshman semester.... I would stick with my Bbb for contrabass and an Eb for bass... and switched my degree to bachelor of music or directly to instrument repair....

Switching to Cc was really tough for me at that time and really had little benefit.

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