Mouthpiece questions/experiences/etc.

[tadawson]

I realize that this is very subjective, but I'd love to hear your opinions of a couple of mouthpieces. It seems like I have not yet found my "Eureka!" mouthpiece on my 1977-sh Mirafone 186 BFlat tuba.

I have a Miraphone C4, a Conn Helleberg 7B, and an older Meinl-Weston I have had from 1983. Thinking of the Conn Helleberg 120S and the Miraphone TU-29

The C4 overall I like, but it seems harder to work the mid to upper staff with it. Low is OK, pedal tones a hut challenging.

The 7B is great in the staff, but I struggle at times with the lower tones (harder to hit, and tend to fall apart playing softly)

The Meinl seems similar to the 7B

I don't have access to a 120S (but found one for a reasonable price). The TU-29 seems spendy, and is out of stock everywhere.

At the end of the day, this may well be my chops just aren't there yet . . . It's been a long time since I have played (and not much time on a 186) so looking for thoughts, since "buy and try" gets expensive!

(Of course, other suggestions are welcome as well! @bloke I have read nothing but good things about your mouthpiece line, but have no idea where to start . . . )

- Tim

[donn]

I'm all for having a big mouthpiece collection, but I would think of that somewhat separately from playing basics like getting the notes, articulation, pitch. No doubt the mouthpiece you have on the tuba can affect those things, but you'll never find the mouthpiece that can make them all better. The difference due to the mouthpiece is mostly elsewhere. Nuances of tone, how fast you can get around, stuff like that, and the difference can be pretty minute. The 120S is a fine mouthpiece that has worked out well for loads of people, but the same can be said of the 24AW, though we may shake our heads in amazement at that. Often these mouthpieces can be acquired at a little more thrifty price as copies, by e.g Faxx or Kelly (Faxx makes high quality products, Kelly plastics can be practically quite useful.)

[gocsick]

For what it's worth...

My son recently switched to a TU-29 for his 90s vintage 186 and really likes it... But that is a different bell profile.

I am finding the Yamaha 68B to be a good fit for me on my early 70s Meinl Weston 20... It is very similar to the C4 in size and cup. The tall bell stack is probably more similar to to your Miraphone than my son's newer 186.

[Grumpikins]

In my situation, I have an old conn 120s and a similar, but much larger/deeper tuba exchange Rose model ( older version ). Among others. The Rose is fantastic down low but a struggle in the staff and not workable above. The 120s is essentially the opposite. I have been trying to find something in between that wont bust the bank.

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[bloke]

If you're interested in trying my stuff and want to reach out to me, I'd probably ask you what instrument you own, what types of ensembles you play in, what type of sound you like, and then I probably strongly encourage you to try one particular rim before you try any others, unless you insist on a rim that's like the one that you're accustomed to using.

I don't know stuff, but I mess with stuff. When I mess with stuff and stumble across stuff that I like, I consider offering it for sale.

[bloke]

Somewhere (I don't know if it was this thread or on Facebook) someone cracked a joke about the mouthpiece being given all the credit and the player being given none of the credit.

The last two times I was hired by a particular person to play with their ensemble, they remarked "THAT TUBA sounds really great."...
...They were two very different tubas.

bloke "Maybe Rodney Dangerfield and I have something in common."

[tadawson]

@donn Thanks for the comments. To clarify, I played constantly back in the 70's and 80's, typically on a Conn Sousaphone with a Conn 2, and did not have any of these issues. Due to life getting in the way, had not played much in the interim, and bought this horn just barely before covid, and thanks to tht and 2 chest surgeries, it didn't get much time. Now that life has slowed down and I have relocated. I am playing in a commujity band, and pretty active. So, the question kind of becomes which factor am I fighting?

- Still don't have the chops back in shape
- Different horn characteristics
- Mouthpiece
- Age
- ???

Since I can't fix my age, and really have no desire to change horns, it kind of comes down to my chops and the horn/mouthpiece comho. Back "in the day" when I had no issues and played constantly, I found that some mouthpieces caused me issues like this (alhough I could have likely worked through them) so mostly just thinking out loud here . . . And I fully get that a mouthpiece won't fix a player, I think that we can all agree that the wrong one can fight back and make things more challenging than they need to be.)

(FWIW, I bought the Helleberg 7B since it was stated to be the same profile as the Conn 2 I had used prior, but so many fators have changed since then,)

@bloke The band I am in is brass/reed mainly (no strings) and plays, for lack of a better term, classics. Sousa marches, West Side Story, Pictures at an Exhibition, and a fair amount of Irish folk songs are in our current set, and mainly play outdoors. As far as sound, I like a bit more of a bark than a mellow tone (I also have a 24AW, and find that a tad too mellow for my tastes.) I really like the sound of the C4, it just seems that it may not be a great fit for this horn (I recall reading that was more a standard on an F horn? Hence the curiosity about the TU-29) Overall rim size/shape/feel on either the Helleberg or the C4 are comfortable and not tiring . . . So, would def be interested in your thoughts on where that would put me in your lineup.

- Tim

[iiipopes]

In my situation, I have an old conn 120s and a similar, but much larger/deeper tuba exchange Rose model ( older version ). Among others. The Rose is fantastic down low but a struggle in the staff and not workable above. The 120s is essentially the opposite. I have been trying to find something in between that wont bust the bank.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

Check out the offerings from J Klier, either the Executive (a little more bowl shaped) or the Executive Classic (more funnel shaped), I have one of each, the Executive for outdoor souzy and the Executive Classic for indoor tuba,both in the 4B size, 32.5mm rim I.D., 8.2mm throat. For me, each mouthpiece works to solve the issues stated so I can get consistent intonation, articulation, and tone throughout the range. Klier has many different rim diameters and throat sizes, because YMMV. Link: https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... -horn#Tuba

[donn]

I am of late liking a Josef Klier Exclusive "Classic" quite a bit myself. (I expect that's what he was talking about above.)

The Conn 7B is sure similar to the Conn 2 in cup measurements, but the rim is different, and there could be some other differences. The Conn 2 was a great mouthpiece.

Everyone has to some extent their own way of playing the tuba. Mine used to be abominably bad, now improved to only moderately bad with an occasional moment of OK. When I have a real , breakthrough, it's often a technical change that's surprisingly easy when I accidentally stop doing it wrong, and when I can remember not to do it wrong.

[Mary Ann]

Another avenue since you appear to play in a section, is see what your bandmates have that they'd be willing to lend you. Most have several and that is a very inexpensive way to try out mouthpieces.
I think I have close to 10 and don't even remember acquiring most of them. When I get a new instrument, which has happened three times in the last few years, It's always the same two or three that end up being the final candidates, because they fit my face. Maybe if I were to drop a bunch of money on fancier ones I'd find something better, but really, at my age and level of playing, if I can't make one of those few work well enough, I should hang it up.
To me the advantage of the JK line is the wide variety of cup widths -- being small I really do much better with a narrower cup. The Wicks are like that too, with the higher numbers having a narrower cup. I haven't tried the bloke mpcs because I already know they are too wide for my face.

[bloke]

I don't set myself up as a mouthpiece advisor. I'm a person who has taken mouthpieces that seem like they were almost exceptionally good, messed with them, sometimes ruined them, and every once in awhile lucked out and made them exceptionally good, in my view. I offer some of those interior shapes for sale. I've heard enough people play mouthpieces - that I consider to be really horrible - and sound really good on them (and move all around the instrument with them) to presume to be qualified to write down so-called truths about mouthpieces. There are people who have set themselves up as mouthpiece gurus. I'm not one of those.

If someone asks me what of my stuff that I use on what type of tuba playing what type of music, I'll tell them that. Every single one of my rims that I use is the same profile, but I use three different inside opening sizes with that profile on different instruments.

Following along with these same themes, I've studied with players who play better than I do and have tried the mouthpieces that they use. I tried them for not just a week or two but a year or more. I can't deal with those mouthpieces. They obviously can.

[rodgeman]

I have owned a couple of Mirafone 186 tubas in the past. Here are my mouthpiece experiences on them.

Conn Helleberg 120S - it works well. It just felt limiting in the lower register to me.

Perantucci Tuba Mouthpiece PT-88+ - great lower register. Takes a lot of air. Sold it to another 186 player.

Dillon G-5 / Dillon G5B/Turner (updated version of the G5) - really like the Geib mouthpieces on rotary tubas. I have used it on a Mirafone 186, Cerveny 601, and my Eastman 562. The inner rim is rounded so I am using the Shires below.
Link https://www.dillonmusic.com/dillon-musi ... d=28881305

S.E. Shires #3 - Shires version of the Geib mouthpiece. I really like the rim on this one for the defined edge. Currently my primary on my Eastman. It came with the instrument when I bought it from Dillon Music.
Link https://www.seshires.com/mouthpieces/measurements

I am happy with all of these but the Geib style mouthpieces work just a little better for me. I hope this helps.

[bloke]

Model 186 works pretty well with just about anything.

[donn]

Maybe an interesting "mouthpiece safari" would be to round up a dozen or so Conn 120S and copies, and find The Answer among them. Last night I was thinking about working in a certain direction with my tone, and going through my mouthpieces, my Faxx "fhb" kind of jumped out of the crowd. It has kind of a special shine to the sound, probably not what I was looking for last night but I think a listener could have picked it out, which wouldn't always have been so much the case among the other mouthpieces I was trying. I've never played the Conn version, but I understand there were a variety of rims over the years, and possibly other differences either by design or factory tolerances. Find the 120S that's right for you!

[Mary Ann]

Just tacking this onto an existing discussion -- if anyone has a decent old Mfone TU05 I'd be interested in it. I like Mfone mpcs but they are in general too wide. I suspect this one is no longer made because it is narrower. But there must be some out there floating around in people's boxes-o-cups.

[bloke]

Just tacking this onto an existing discussion -- if anyone has a decent old Mfone TU05 I'd be interested in it. I like Mfone mpcs but they are in general too wide. I suspect this one is no longer made because it is narrower. But there must be some out there floating around in people's boxes-o-cups.

Without me having to look at specs which you have found somewhere, would you define "narrower" for us? Do you mean that the cup opening span is narrower, the rim profile is narrower, or both of these things?

[Mary Ann]

Opening span. I need about 30 and 1/2.

The two I am using:
Wick 5L 30.4
JK 8C 30.5

The PT64 that I used so much in the past, clearly is too wide compared to what I can do with the narrower ones, as is the 7B that I have used in the past on the 183 for typical oompah (like in the video I posted of the quintet a couple years ago.) If I were playing the contra part in the brass band, I would probably work my way back into the 7B. But for what I do, bass tuba in both brass band and TE quartet, I need something like the above. Both work quite well but I'm sure there are others that I might like. I'd get a JK 8E if I could find one, because of the smaller throat.

[dsfinley]

Opening span. I need about 30 and 1/2.

The two I am using:
Wick 5L 30.4
JK 8C 30.5

The PT64 that I used so much in the past, clearly is too wide compared to what I can do with the narrower ones, as is the 7B that I have used in the past on the 183 for typical oompah (like in the video I posted of the quintet a couple years ago.) If I were playing the contra part in the brass band, I would probably work my way back into the 7B. But for what I do, bass tuba in both brass band and TE quartet, I need something like the above. Both work quite well but I'm sure there are others that I might like. I'd get a JK 8E if I could find one, because of the smaller throat.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/jk_exclusive_tuba_8e.htm

There you go Mary Ann! I’m a big JK fan as well.

[Mary Ann]

Thanks -- I found one that will arrive with a total cost $50 less than what Thomann wants. I had not bought before from Thomann because of their ridiculous shipping cost.
I doubt it will make much difference, but should be fun to mess with.